I'm largely familiar with the dipsy-leftbehind interpretation of the Great Tribulation being the period of 7 years of Tribulation after the secret rapture.

Note: I do not believe this.

What I'm wondering is how you guys (Amil/Postmil) interpret the Great Tribulation if any at all? With specific reference to Matthew 24-25.

If the Abomination of Desolation refers to A.D. 70, how is everything else that follows in the subsequent verses played out in reality?

Also, what do you think about the rapture?

Thanks

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

66 AD to 70AD was the Great Tribulation. Jeremiah states that it is the time of Jacob's Trouble. It was the punishment of apostate Israel foretold by the prophets and also by Moses. It fulfills the things spoken by Jesus in Matthew 22, 23 and 24 as well.

Since there is no longer a Roman Empire (Rome was the FINAL world empire per Daniel), a future Great Tribulation is not only impossible, it makes no sense.

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Ed
PCA
Cleveland TN

I can only say this since I am fairly confused, ign'ant, and undecided on the issue: I am willing to accept a rapture as long as I choose to go and it is not forced upon my own free will.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Whoa! That's a loaded statement. What? You afraid of heights?

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

lol

No, I'm just not convinced that those who are raptured get to fly away home with their clothes on or not. I can already hear my atheist neighbor: "Whoa, what's that 'streaking' across the sky?!"

Regarding the Rapture, it must needs first be defined. The rapture is nothing more than the translation of the living saints at the time of Christ's coming. It is part and parcel of the resurrection, which Jesus emphatically states occurs on the LAST DAY. The event occurs milliseconds after the resurrection of the dead saints. You cannot separate the rapture and the resurrection by any lengthy time period. Coupled with Jesus' statement that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, we are compelled to believe that both events occur on the Last Day and not before, otherwise, the Last Day would not be the last day.

Furthermore, Peter does a great job of expanding on Paul's thief in the night statement in II Peter 3:10, stating that the heavens will melt and pass away with a great noise, hardly a secret coming with all that noise.

Ewenlin, I feel for you attending an AoG school but not being a pre-miller. I am sure they think you a raging heretic of the highest order.

Well, if I cant be the best theologian, why not be the best heretic.

Who cares what I think about the great tribulation, I'm outa here before it happens!!!! My car will be unmanned, and anybody who wants it can have it!!!!!!!!!

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Steven J. Carr (Sven)
http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com/
Eagan, MN
PCA
"Weak is the effort of my heart / And cold my warmest thought / But when I see thee as thou art / I'll praise thee as I ought."--John Newton
Trophy Wife/Arm Candy: Crystal Ann Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace

Oh really? What do you drive? I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm safe but just in case...

It just might turn out that all God's true children suffer great tribulation in this life. Rev. 7.14 gives this designation in the same breath as one of those many descriptions that perfectly describe all Christians - "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nore any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall lead them unto living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Acts 14.22 says that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." and other NT passages speak of this being standard fare in this life - Rom 5.3, 12.12; 2 Cor. 1.4,7.4; 1 Th. 3.4; 2 Th. 1.4; Rev. 1.9, 2.9. Maybe this would be one test we could apply to ourselves to help us know of our spiritual state. Just a thought.

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Daniel
Baptist
Oregon

It's these thoughts, Daniel, along with difficulties in the exegesis involved in a seven year trib, that keep me from adhering to it though I'm premil. We are to expect it. Though, if there isn't a seven year period, I think Scripture points to a ramping up of tribulation prior to Christ's return.

Joe, maybe there will be a greatest and final "time of troubles" on the earth just prior to Christ's return - we will know if and when it happens. But I think we miss the primary intention in the mind of God when he inspired John to write the Revelation if we don't see it as written to Christians to comfort and guide them in their daily trials and tribulations. I can only speak for myself, but when I read some of those vivid descriptions in Revelation I don't find it difficult to see my little war with the world, the devil and my own flesh portrayed there, though I don't understand all the metaphors and pictures in detail. I think all God's true one's have some kind of martydom in life, if only a slow, seemingly endless fighting with our spiritual foes.

Sounds like presupposed lenses to me...

Even if it's not the meaning of Revelation, and I don't think it is, I do think Daniel's considerations are a good application. And I don't think that we will know until it happens - i.e., either the church is raptured or Christ returns. No one knows the day or hour.

The word thlipsis is not a special word, it simply means tough times. In this world, you will have tribulation, means simply that we can expect the tough times that every man faces.

The term "The Great Tribulation" is a theological term used to describe what I believe is the 3.5 year time of trouble inflicted upon the Jews between 66 AD and 70 AD, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Diaspora. It was Biblically predicted and came to pass. It has nothing to do with us today.

That may be, but I wish they'd have thought of a less corny word for it.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Though I believe that this did occur in 70 A.D typically but that its final fulfillment is still future hence the Double Fulfillment view or Prophetic Prospective...see Riddlebarger

Monergism :: Amillennialism 101

Monergism :: General Eschatology Issues

Scroll down on this link to Riddlebarger on Matt. 24 parts 1 and 2

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Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

And all God's people said AMEN.

To hear the pre-mils tell the story, the word comes from the Greek word harpazo (rhapadzo). How they came to that conclusion, I have no clue. Kind of sounds like Meshach meaning Moscow and Tubal meaning Tubolsk in Ezekiel 36's Gog/Magog account.

If "Jacob's trouble" is expressive of "the great tribulation" then the proposition that the fulfillment occurred in 70 AD might be evaluated in light of Jer 30.

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Bryan
Deacon, PCA
Tampa, FL

The Great Tribulation is an analogy for babysitting your younger siblings.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

or.. getting married?

These are notes given the church to reflect on from this coming Sunday's bulletin:

The seventh seal is revealed, firstly, as the time when the prayers of all the saints are formally presented to God at His throne – in a time of reverent silence. Note that these prayers of the saints are seen also in Rev 5:8 and 6:10. Secondly, God’s answer to these prayers of His suffering churches is to commence judgment in the world, and these judgments are symbolized in the seven trumpets. These trumpets are a closer look at – show in more detail – the events which were revealed in the first six seals: the partial (limited) judgments which God brought upon the earth as the Lamb opened the seals of the book, up to the final and full judgment at the end of time in 6:12-17.

So the trumpets, as well as the seals, do not simply show events happening one after the other, but things that are happening at the same time throughout the world, sometimes here, sometimes there, according to the wisdom of God. Even in John’s day the first six trumpets were sounding. However, the judgments they reveal do increase in severity and frequency as the end draws near, resulting in the final outpouring of wrath on the world for the harm done His people. This final wrath is shown in the seventh trumpet and its seven bowls or vials, and culminates in the day of His appearing, as we see in the sixth seal.

As we live in the world where these judgments are taking place, and suffer along with the rest of the world, we must remember that they come directly from our Lamb who has opened the seals of God’s decrees (He it is who looses the devils for their brief time – punishing the wicked, while purifying the saints, who stay true). The judgments are His warnings that hurting His people brings His wrath.

For decades I was premil pretrib — the grid I'd learned to see by — till I heard a couple of Messianic Jewish pastors I gathered with talk about the new temple in Jerusalem during the Millennium, and the sacrifices that would be offered in it. I said to them, "Haven't you guys ever read Hebrews? That stuff is done away with!" And I then asked one of them, a good friend, if he had any books on the amillennial view, and that was the beginning of my leaving my former views. The last position I'd held while in the premil camp was Marvin Rosenthal's "Pre-Wrath Rapture", which said the church would go through the Tribulation but escape the final days of wrath.

Now I hold to the amil view, which sees the tribulation all during the church age, consisting of purifying trials for the saints and judgments on the world for their persecution of the same. As the end approaches both purifying trials and judgments will gain in frequency, intensity, and universality.

As the saints are sealed their faith cannot be lost or their souls harmed, though they may suffer bodily both by persecution and the general judgments on the world.

The book of Revelation is to be understood through discerning the symbolic images presented, and interpreted literally only rarely when it clearly must be.

Four good commentaries I have found are:

Wm Hendriksen, More than Conquerors

Herman Hoeksema, Behold He Cometh

Dennis E. Johnson, The Triumph of the Lamb

G.K. Beale, The Book of Revelation. (To see Beale's excellence, check out his lecture, "The Two Witnesses in Revelation" at Reformed Sermons and Lectures by G.K. Beale). [Caveat re Beale: some of his erudite conclusions seem to me far-fetched, though he is very good on OT foundations of Revelation.]

Preaching through Revelation currently, I use all four, compare among their occasional minor differences, and obtain a solid understanding though their general consensus. It is not an easy book, and yet there is a clear understanding obtainable with the right interpretive keys.

The relevance and power of the amil view, and Revelation's exhibition of it, is wondrous to me. We are living in the days spoken of, and it seems nearing the End.

Riddlebarger's views, mentioned above, are also excellent resources. There is no room to err in such vital matters, for how then shall we discern the times?

A good cameo (among many others) of the very end is found in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Matt 13:37-43. The end is when the wicked and the righteous are separately gathered to their respective destinies – no "rapture" out of the world before the end of it, no millennial reign in earthly Jerusalem. To see things literally when they are meant to be symbols is to err.

I do not wish to debate this topic, as I'm too busy at this point, plus it has been debated often here!

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Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

Blog: A Great and Terrible Love

I understand the tribulation to be what we face as believers in this age, along with the promise that God will preserve his church (people) until Christ's great and glorious return.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

I think that the book of Hebrews was warning the Christians to not lose faith during the great tribulation. It is the only way I can reconcile all the "end is near" verses in the New Testament. I struggled for over twenty five years with the "end times" and then Dr. Kenneth Gentry answered every question with a Biblical answer. If you have not read his material or been to a conference I think you should go. Please do not rail on me or Dr. Gentry now if you have not studied his material.

-----Added 7/23/2009 at 03:23:09 EST-----

Brother, I know that in this life, "We have tribulation," plus we are to face this with long suferring but I don't think this is what is understood as the Great Tribulation.

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

The idea of spiritualizing the book of Revelation is similar to what the puritans and others after them do with the Song of Solomon. It is not new. It was the method of understanding both those books held by Martyn Lloyd-Jones, for instance. I think there may be a literal fulfilment of parts of the Revelation in the future, as there was under Domitian (who raised himself above all that is called God) at the time John perhaps penned it. But if we literalize it only or push it all to the future it seems to lose most of its usefulness for Christians who don't live during those times. And there are indications at the beginning that it was meant for Christians in all ages "Whosever readeth.." etc. Of course it is a presupposed viewpoint. Presupposed in the sense that all Scripture is meant to have real and present meaning to all God's children at all times.

Great tribulation - already happened, AD 66 - AD 70. Note in Matt 24 no specific time period is given for it.

As has been discussed many times on this board, verse 34 - "this generation" - brackets the previous verses.

It is odd that when "this generation" is used in the Gospels, no one has a problem with it referring to that actual generation of Jesus and the disciples' day. But since "this generation" in Matt. 24 doesn't fit into the dispensationalist's framework, it suddenly doesn't mean "this generation" anymore.

It's somewhat similar to the translation of the Hebrew work nazah in Isaiah 52:15 for "sprinkle." The other 23 times it appears in the OT, it means sprinkle. But when those opposed to sprinkling come across it in Is. 52:15, it is strangely translated "startle." (Yes, believe it or not, linguistic scholars can be biased also.)

It is sad when people sometimes insist that the texts cannot speak for themselves in order to justify their presuppositional beliefs.

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Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

Well to be quite honest, I'm no preterist anymore and have no problem with anything you just said being that the Great Tribulation did occur in 70 a.d typically but its final fulfillment is still to come being that prophecy has a double fulfillment aspect to it....this fact cannot be denied.

So again I agree with you that it happened as a forerunner for the final stage. There is a double reference to Christ prophecy so when He says "..... such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." Mtt 24:21B it doesn't mean IMO that that particular tribulation is the the one and only because Christ wasn't talking about that one only but double referencing to the final and ultimate one yet to come. Again see Riddlebarger for better and detailed explanation

If I'm not mistaken, Dr. Gentry is a Postmil. I have gone through some of his writings and it is pretty good. Why would you expect any 'railing' on you or Dr. Gentry for that?

Could you provide some examples and references to the highlighted part in red?

Interesting observation... Thanks.

The trouble with this double reference to prophecies is how do you know which is which? It seems to me to be just a convenient way to include a literal futurist reading.

Correct me if I'm wrong..

It'd be nice to think that the terrible, dreaded "Great Tribulation" did occur some 1930 years ago; it'd be nice to think that the culture will become gradually more and more Christian influenced; it'd be nice...

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

I believe that all of us here will die - being a postmillenialist. Then we'll be raised and "raptured" at the end of time. the Great Tribulation was the destruction of Jerusalem although there have been not small tribulations since, and also associated with the Jewish Dispersion.

Although Jesus said that even He didn't know when He was returning, He already gives indications in the Olivet Discoure about when He is not returning.

From Matthew 24:36 Jesus is talking about His Second Coming - Matthew 24:1-35 is about His figurative coming in judgement on Jerusalem. He said this would happen in a generation and it did. Matthew 24:23-27 tell us that His literal and physical Advent wasn't to be in AD 70.

Re time indications which He is not going to return before

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(Matt 24:37) The days of Noah's preaching were arelatively long time of 120 years and the judgement wasn't sent till he had proclaimed the Gospel.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;(Matt 24:38) Jesus will tarry long enough to make people think that His Advent is delayed.

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept (Matthew 25:5).
It's going to be a long time.

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. (Matt. 25:14) Someone travelling far away may take a long time to get back.

After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Matt 25:19) Once again Jesus indicates He is going to be away for a long time.

Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that the Gospel will have been widely dispersed among all nations.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:39) He will not return in literal and physical glory until the Jewish nation receives the messengers of the Gospel. See also Romans 11 which indicates great Gospel blessing for the world after the conversion of the Jews. You can only have great Gospel blessing - i.e. lots of people saved by faith before Jesus returns, because when He returns faith will be swallowed up by sight (Heb 11:1).

Christ will not return until the apostasy and the revelation of Antichrist, which has been accomplished in the Papacy.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(II Thess 2:3)

Christ does not come as a thief in the night for his people, nor will He come to take from them but to give to them, nor will that day be a nasty surprise for them, but only and always for the wicked.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ ( I Thess 5: 4-9)

More later..........

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

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I'm not sure what you are asking but allow me to assert that Christ was a Prophet, yes? Not only that but an Old Testament prophet still fulfilling all righteousness for us. So His prophecy has the same double fulfillment as the Old testament prophets, we must remember Christ was not a NT prophet this is what confuses people so the Double fulfillment would still apply to Christ prophetic utterance.

Matthew 24:42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord
doth come.
"That he will come, is certain. That his coming may be at any moment, is equally sure; and, therefore, we ought to be always ready for his appearing. The Lord make us to be so!" - Spurgeon
For myself, because there is at least the possibility that Christ may come at any moment (so some have believed) I take it as a motive to prepare my poor unworthy self for His coming. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure"

Hi Daniel, I think everyone here on PB will agree with you on this one.

He can come at any moment in death. His Second Coming partakes of the "already not yet" of eschatology. For us - and most others including Spurgeon - His Second Coming will be in death. But His visible and glorious Second Coming is delayed until the end of the world. There are other places where the Bible talks about Christ's coming and it's clearly not talking about His Advent at the end of time. Christ has already come for many, will come for us in death, and will also come with us unto resurrection and rapture at the end of time.

We must be ready for our Lord's Coming for us - not by knowing when we are going to die - but by being justified, adopted and sanctified and by steering clear of backsliding, although justified people who are backsliding when they die will be saved because they are justified.

So every prophetic message by Christ has a double fulfillment? Sort of a Futurist + preterist reading?

The Great Tribulation was the trials and tribulations (No pun intended) leading up to and including A.D. 70. The Rapture is when the believer dies and enters The Intermediate State

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI

Well the ones that deal with worldly events......He did prophesy his death and resurrection but that had to do with his work of redemption...but as far as apocalyptic matters which Matt 24-25 is all about that I know of anyways, that has a different connotation to it.

-----Added 7/23/2009 at 09:30:17 EST-----

For clarity sake I guess, but I would just call it Prophetic Perspective which does include both extremes IMO and seems to me to be a biblical balance to both

Can someone help me out with this,

Am listening to my lecturer make the case for a Pre-trib rapture. (Lets assume a future literal trib for now)

1. Dan 9 relates to Israel, not the church.

2. You can't find any reference to the church in Rev 4 onwards, signifying the church is absent.

Is this the classic dipsy interpretation especially with regards to Daniel 9?

How should Dan 9 be interpreted? Has it already been fulfilled by Christ?
How would you answer point 2? That there is no reference to church in Rev 4 onwards?