[QUOTE=Damon Rambo;643149]
Augustine was the first to come up with Amillennialism (or more properly, arrange and express the view of Tyconius). In 430, the premillennial position was banned: by this time, though, Christianity was already beginning to be in bondage to the papacy. So, in my opinion, the next 1000 years of Christianity does not count, at least the "official" church, anyway.

Anyway, regardless of how you see it, historic premillennialism was the original, and oldest view.
[QUOTE]

There were christians during the last 1000 years of the church, so I think it should count. Clement of Alexandria and Origen denied the historic premillennialism position I think and if memory serves there were different variants of the premillennialism position by the church fathers. The rise of the historic premillennialism and popularity as we see it today was a response against the dispensationalism of the late 19 century, even though we can find baptists like John Gil in support of it much earlier. So we must consider the majority view of reformation was Amillennialism historically, from Luther and his denomation to Calvin when making our claim.

I am not saying I disagree with your position on being historical premillennialists, but I do not think we call our position historically the majority view and at the same time look at the church fathers in complete agreement on the issue at hand.

__________________
David Jolley
Currently SBC, may change
Confessions: 1680-SLBCF/ 2000-BFAM
Escondido, CA

That sounds like what I believe.
I would have voted "a-mil" but what is partial-preterist???
I know it is still possible, but the three and a half good years followed by three and a half bad years, then Christ returning and taking the believers but leaving the unbelievers and giving them 1000 years to come to him sounds very science-fictiony to me. (Maybe because it has become so in our culture, so I am not saying that this means it can't be true.)

I also wonder about it taking people 1000 years to come to Christ when God predestines them. It certainly could best glorify him to take 1000 years, but it doesn't make sense in my little head. Perhaps all I know of the position is hearsay of Nostradamus from standing in the grocery store check-out line too long, and I don't really understand the position.

__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

[quote=Grimmson;643212]The Roman Catholic Papists were the ones doing the writing. So what position the "Christians" held, is up for debate.

__________________
Damon Rambo
Southern Baptist Convention
Member of Brazosport Baptist Temple, South Texas
Youth Pastor/Evangelist

Straight Walk Ministries is my home.

Historic Postmill here thanks to Patrick Fairbairn's "The interpretation of prophecy"

__________________
Josh
Reformed - WCF
Clinton, Utah

"My business is to love others and not to seek that others shall love me" // "Redeeming the time, for the days are evil" Eph 5:16

[quote=Damon Rambo;643294]You cannot blame Rome on this one, and I am most assurely anti-romanist. Amillennialism is the dominat view taken not just by the West(Rome), but also the East with the Eastern Orthodox churches( regardless if their Greek, Russian, Syrian, Armenian, and I think also Coptic even though their not techically a part the Eastern Orthodox Churches).

In fact this view of church history, if you were to be consistent negelecting the next 1000 years of the church and their theology as whole, would lead you to hold a Alexandrian text- type codex or proto version there of versuses the Byzantine text type. Thus affecting the TR and to some degree The NA27. I am just showing how your view of church history also affects are theology and transmission of the Bible that we have today. Therefore let us not be blaming Rome for the Amillennialism posistion and instead bring up our evidence biblically for the case there of for historic premillennialism. We must be careful how we use history becaue the premillennialism of our church fathers did vary, so we cannot just go back and claim a standard universal position; assuming we want to be true to the truth that we proclaim.

Historic Amillennial.

__________________
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeff - FCC - Georgia


"Every word of God is pure" — Proverbs 30:5

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it." — Patrick Henry, A.D. 1775

This response is for Jessi, a.k.a. He Beholds, and for anyone else with a similar question. I define partial preterism as an eschatological view that looks at most of the prophesy in the New Testament and some of the Old as being fulfilled by the fall of the Second Temple. The main difference with full preterism on this point however is in regards to the future coming of Christ, which full preterists claim has already been fulfilled along with his final judgment that is ongoing after the fall of Jerusalem. It is for this reason we can still look at the partial position as being orthodox; however I want to add that that I have ran across some who claim to be partial and holds to a two Second Comings of Christ, which makes me scratch my head. The first being at 70AD, and not during the delivery of the Apocalypse of John(Revelations). The second being at another future coming. R.C. Sproul is a partial preterists, but I do not know his view regarding this partial variation.

If you want to read why I do not think Revelations was written prior to 70 AD, please look at my postings on the link below:
When was Revelation written?

Now I think there some confusion on the Millennium or the 1000 years, which makes sense because of the three main varying views here. I myself as I have already indicated am a historical pre-mil. Preterists typically fall under the Amillennial or postmillennial view. I personally do not know where to put the full perterist camp but to the amillennial view because of the present reign of Christ based on the definition given earlier; however their denial of a physical resurrection or transformation of the body after death would place some strain on most who hold to a Amillennialists position.

Your right , that does sound fishy, you must recognize that it is only the premillennium view that looks at the 1000 year reign as literal and not the others. 2 Peter 2:9, a very common passage to take out of context, suggests why Christ has not come yet and that is so none of his people, none of us, will perish.God timing is God timing, he has ordained the ends and the means, if it takes 1000 years then so be it. But let us now move to defining Historical premillennialism with the dispensational which I am sure you are familiar with. First concerning the rapture, His. Pre-mils hold to a post-trib categorically; unlike those of a dispensational perspective which vary as seen in their main difference of course between the Christian and Israel distinctions or categories that are made of the positions. Both sides hold to a rapture, but in the His. case it preceeds and is followed up by Christ's 1000 year reign and those within the rapture are not just the living saints, but also the dead who will reign with him. At this stage there is a mingling of sorts with the present and eternal stage or era. Also there will be a literal gathering in the millennial kingdom until the final rebellion and defeat of Satan.

Hopefully, this has answered your questioned. Continue to ask on this blog or email me if you want more details on these questions.

I do have one quick (probably dumb) question...Are people alive for 1000 years each (never dying in that time) or is history re-started for another 1000 years? From my very limited understanding, I've assumed that each person lives for 1000 years.

Also, is Christ living on earth with the unbelievers (whilst the rapture has taken the saints)? What does he do for those 1000 years, and what do the unbelievers do? Live with jobs and families, etc? Or try to fight Christ with Satan? Sorry for the great ignorance.

My position is not mentioned. I'm a Last Day Adventist. Jesus will come on the Last Day, whenever that day is. (OK, technically, I'm post-millennial and post-Gog and Magog, but that won't fit, LOL.

__________________
Ed
PCA
Cleveland TN

Partial-preterist, postmillennial

__________________
Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

Historic Amil, with some post-mil leanings.

__________________
Ray Nearhood
Layman
Rockdale Community Church (a Reformed Baptist Fellowship)
Conyers, GA
LBC 1689
Husband of Evelyn , Father of Oren and Elijah
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." -

Just changed from historic-postmillennial to Partial-preterist, postmillennial !

__________________
* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
* Church : Christengemeente Roermond (The Netherlands)
* 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith & 1646 Baptist Confession of faith

"To our mind, either everything or nothing must be held in subjection to the will and providence of God. Even the wickedness of ungodly men is restricted by predestination, so that the wrath of man shall praise God, and the remainder of wrath He will restrain." - GILBERT BEEBE (1800-1881)

Somewhere before the end (that should be an option in the poll, ).

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Amen! What a blessing!

What made you change?

I just changed from before-millenial to fully-protesteric, passedmillenial!

I just changed back. I thought it was a spiritual moment, but it was just something I ate.

I see a distinction in the Scriptures between Israel and the Church, but I think I am moving very much closer to the historic pre-millennial view.

__________________
"Gentle words, quiet words, are after all, the most powerful words. They are more convincing, more compelling, more prevailing." - Washington Gladden

Through Kenneth Gentry and his hermeneutics on eschatology, Revelation, Matthew 24 ..etc.

I like your answer

__________________
Travis
URC
Boise, ID

I have an assumption that Amillenialism is the goto posistion for those of that were raised dispy premills. Most people I talk to who come out of dispensationalism go amillenial for a while and then are either confirmed in thier Amillenialism or thier further studys lead them to historic premil or postmillenial. Just something Ive noticed.

__________________
Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

Are there any panmillennist......it's all gonna "pan" out?

__________________
Ralph
Pastor
Valera Baptist Church
Valera, Texas

I have no idea if there is a term for what I believe... I believe that there will be signs and things are going to get really really bad for the saints.... we will be "conquered" by satan and when there are very few of us left then the rapture will happen and we will be caught up with Him in the sky.... after which all the bowls of wrath and bad stuff will happen and people will want to die but can't and then they will form an army and try to fight against Jesus and the the saint, lose then will come the judgement. take that what you will but I don't have any clue what that's called.

__________________
Jessica Auner
Wife, Mother,
Garden City, Ga
Ephesus Church
(a Reformed Baptist church)

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Eschatology REALLY hurts my head when I think about it. Therefore knowing God IS sovereign;

I'm Pan-Mil.. It's all gonna pan out in the end.

Who's with me? Lol..

__________________
Nick Jenkins
Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Lapeer, MI

You get a big fat Amen from me. Fed up with millennial differences causing trouble in the church.

__________________
Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Hate to tell y'all, but eschatology is as important as any other Christian doctrine.

So there are no secondary issues then?

My point is that Biblical doctrines are one cohesive unit. To neglect one aspect of this unit, will negatively impact other parts of the unit.

People often appeal to "pan-millennialism" not because prophecy is hard to understand, but that they do not want to put in the time and energy to understand God's plan for history and that which is to come.

Yes there are secondary issues, but I believe eschatology is not one of them. One's view of the future affects how they work in the present. Eschatology is important!

I agree with you eschatology is important. However I think it is a secondary issue. Jesus just said be ready. I'll let you more theological saints worry about this stuff, I'm going to keep focused on trying to fulfill our Lord's commission. Much more important then if we are gonna be beamed up before or after the Trib.. Just my 2cents..

Whoa...easy there Southern Twang!
Some people may do it for that reason, but if they're that lazy and shallow I doubt they would take the time and energy to join and post on this board.
You're making a blanket judgment on folks you do not know. It's not that any of us are above judgment, but we would appreciate that when you judge you judge with righteous judgment based on clear evidence.
I find God's plan for history and the future fascinating. That is why I took our congregation through the entire books of Daniel and Revelation...verse by verse...chapter by chapter...over a period of two years. I take it very seriously, yet I am very practical with it. Whether or not I have all the prophetic events in the exact right order
1) Isn't going to affect the order of events as the Lord wants them
2) Isn't going to affect the primary need for people to be saved by grace through faith in Christ
Out of all the things we don't know, let us focus on what we DO know...
1CO 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Dewey does have a point here: One's eschatological position does affect how one lives out their faith and the faith of preserving future generations. For instance, typically, not all, folks who hold to a Pretrib and Premill view tend to be more pessimistic about engaing society and looking forward to preserving the faith. I'm not saying all but in my experience and in my circles this has been the case. Now, take someone who is Postmill they have a optimistic view of the Church. There's more optimism about the power of the gospel to transform society.

I think what Dewey is saying is it takes alot of time and energy to consider all eschatological positions. Just studying one and then coming to the conclusion that it's right or it will pan out is neglecting the effort needed to make a valid conclusion.

__________________
John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

Really? I am pretrib and premill. Please describe my tendency to be pessimistic about engaging society and looking forward to preserving the faith?

Pastor Ralph I didn't say you. I said in my circles and in my experience this was the case.

Ralph,

You might be optimistic, engage society, and are willing to preserve the faith, BUT, you are inconsistent with your eschatology to which I praise God.

I didn't take it personally. I know you didn't mean me, but you did say "typically." That is stereotyping of sorts, but I need this stereotype "fleshed out."
What did you mean?

-----Added 8/25/2009 at 01:07:24 EST-----

How's that?

I am Amillenial

__________________
David
PCA
Richardson, Texas

Saving faith is an immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, resting upon Him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of God's grace.
--C.H. Spurgeon

I confess that I don't hold onto any other position other than a "personal, imminent, (time) unexpected return of Christ." I'm not so sure on the specifics, whether premil, a-mil and so on.

__________________
Tian Long (you can call me LTL)
Reformed Baptist
Singapore
"God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble." - Psalm 46:1 (NKJV)

For His honor, glory and name!

That's how it is with me, though I find that the ghost of dispensationalism never completely leaves me especially the times like the election and now with the healthcare stuff. I'm getting better though

__________________
Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Both of your responses are excellent! I am in many ways a "Pan-Mil" as defined by Radical Pilgrim - God IS sovereign and it will all work out!!

I consider myself a partial-preterist, post-tribulational premilinialist.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. - Rev 1:3

__________________
Eric Paulsen
Preaching Deacon, GFCC - Non-Denominational/Independent
Grizzly Flats, California

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. - Titus 1:9

Partial preterist, Post mil.

Not that I was in need of convincing, but it was great to have Kenneth Gentry visit us in Australia as the keynote speaker of the Daniel 2:44 conference two weeks ago. Daniel 2:44 conferences are held annually in Canberra, Australia and around 100-150 (mainly post millers) attend.


Gentry presented eight lectures on the Book of Revelation and ably answered many good questions. He preached the Sunday sermon on the topic of, you guessed it, "The Greatness of the Great Commission." What a gracious man is Kenneth Gentry and what a delight it was to spend three days under his teaching.

__________________
Andrew
PCA South Yarra
Victoria, Australia

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
Rev. 11:15

The Confession allows for Postmil and Amil positions (at least the sort that sees all nations converting to Christ, followed by the conversion of the Jews).

In fact, I was just reading Thomas Vincent's comments on the shorter catechism, and he located the conversion of all nations and of the Jews within Q4 on "What is God", and the infinitude of God's power.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."