I'm currently working through the various systems in eschatology and would like to know simply what are the key texts or turning points that shaped your eschatological position. For example if you're a Premil simply based on 1 text, Rev20 (think Macarthur).

By the way, I'm using Three views on the millennium and beyond, as kind of the main reading with Robert B. Strimple presenting the Amil, Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. the Postmil and Craig A. Baising the Premil positions. Are they good representations of the various positions or should I be looking else where? I've gone through Strimple's argument for Amil and it seems pretty weak.

Thanks bunch

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

duet. 29:29

__________________
"Bible knowledge without repentance, will be but a torch to light men to hell. -Thomas Watson
United Through Christ
Ricky Heeb
Grace Reformed Church (RCUS) Lancaster, CA

I just found out that Craig A. Blaising was Professor of Christian Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Didn't know SBTS were so steeped in dispensationalism.

Micah 4 or Psalm 72 for the postmil position.

Micah 4

1But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

--------
Psalm 72

3The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

4He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

5They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

6He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

7In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

9They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

10The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

15And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

16There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

17His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

18Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.

19And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

20The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

__________________
Josh
Reformed - WCF
Clinton, Utah

"My business is to love others and not to seek that others shall love me" // "Redeeming the time, for the days are evil" Eph 5:16

There were a few key texts for me. To name a few...

• Mat 24
• Isa 9:6-7
• Isa 11:6-10
• Micah 4:1-5

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

Matthew 24-25, Rev. 20, 2 Thess 2:2, Daniel 7...

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

When I found out that there are only two places where the particular greek word is used to bind the strong man- one in the classic Rev Millenial passage, and the other when Jesus talks about binding the strong man.....well, I had to decide if Satan really was bound or not by the perfect work of Jesus Christ.

I decided yes, and everything amil fell into place after that.

I'd have to say that Riddlebargers treatment of Daniel 9 ( the dispys interpret it as the antichrist, but he shows how it is all a prophecy of the messiah) is the icing on the amil cake.

__________________
Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

Secret rapture? hehe

I would assume Postmil based on Micah 4?

-----Added 7/22/2009 at 09:59:24 EST-----

Hmm this is interesting. Thanks!

NO NO, it's obviously Isa 55:8

__________________
John Weathersby
Calvary Chapel
New Mexico

"For I decided to know nothing among you except
Jesus Christ and him crucified (1 Cor 2:2)".

What pushed me to the postmil from the amil camp was if the millenium began at the redemption purchased by Christ on the cross, hence binding Satan, then how can Satan be loosed again, being that the power of Christ's redemptive work will never end?

So, from amil to postmil key text would be: Rev 20:3

Uh Oh..........let the games begin!!!!

your dilema stems from a misunderstanding of what the binding of Satan entails. What is your understanding if I may ask? Is it JUST about the application of Christ's redemptive work to the elect or is there more?

But to answer the original question, I don't think a position is going to be determined upon one key text though I know what you mean when you ask this, don't get me wrong. My journey to the Amil camp was one of Biblical Theology and understanding the overarching premise of Covenant Theology which leads me to understand Christ own words when speaking about a suffering Church one that is "not above his Master" and is called to suffer for His sake which then led me to better understand Christ kindom parables ESPECIALLY the wheat and the tares. But thats just me

__________________
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

Matthew 24:34 pushed the "tribulation" to the past. Out went the premill view.

IMHO, too many verses in the Bible that make it appear that the gospel is going to have an overwhelming, all conquering, victorious impact on this earth. (Is 9:6, Is. 65, Matt 28:19). So amillennialism is out of the question, label me a postmillennailist.

__________________
Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

Of course its gonna have an impact on earth but not before His coming. We Amils believe the same thing the problem is that the Postmil want to place this truth before His coming and we Amils place this same exact truth After His coming and do so on the basis of the clear testimony of scripture. Can any Postmil PLEASE by all means present any citation of scripture or context that places an golden age PRIOR to Christ return, we believe in a golden age but this age is everlasting and one that is truly Gold not gold plated in the New heavens and New Earth....following question to think about because the passages you are about to present are nothing new to us.....

Do the passages that you are presenting (Isaiah, Psalms, kindom parables) CLEARLY present an age between this present age and the age to come making three ages?

Roldan,

If eschatology was as clear as you see it, than everyone would believe the same way as you.

Off the top of my head, I would say Isaiah 65 points to a golden age before Christ returns. Particularly, Isaiah 65:20 makes me think it is before Christ returns because it speaks of sinners being present.

I don't know about this three ages thing you are talking about. I've never heard this from the postmills.

Perhaps a puritan form of Postmillennialism that envisions a literal thousand years rather than as a time spanning the entire church age, making up the three ages.

Isaiah 65 is merely anthropomorphic language.

There is NO evidence for referring the OT passages to the millennium of the New, there is an overwhelming army of evidence for indentifying it with the Perfect eternal state. Isaiah 65:17 sets the stage and time for the entire prophecy: "Behold I create a new heavens and a new earth." This prophecy, recapitulated in verse 22 of the next chapter, is chronologically applied by Peter, in 2 Peter 3, and John, Revelation 21, to a time FOLLOWING the coming of Christ. They interpret Isaiah as refering to the eternal state. In both these NT passages, the Isaiah prophecy is clearly linked with a time subsequent to the millennium. Peter interprets Isaiah's "promise" as one which will be PRECEEDED by the destruction of the wicked and the melting away of the present heavens and earth. Revelation 21 locates the fulfillment of the prophecy at exactly the same time, John perfectly places it AFTER the thousand years, the resurrection and the white throne judgement. Other passages of a parallel nature also must refer to the new earth, not the millennial earth.

The contents of Isaiah's POETIC prophecy are no more literal than the description of the eternal state in Rev. 21 and 22. Who can interpret all the details of those two chapters literally? In both, Isaiah and Rev., language is used,in terms of what was considered most pleasant and astonishing in that day, to get across what words with their present limitations are incapable of correctly expressing. How else can perfection be described in words which have imperfect objects and concepts as recipients? It is difficult to understand why this passage should be misinterpreted when it clearly is indentified with the eternal state by the New Testament. The millennial references is totally without evidence, but its identification with the eternal state is affirmed by an abundance of biblical evidence.

This one passage has been singled out to demonstrate the way in which OT passages which actually refer to restoration from captivity, the New Testament age, and the eternal state are erroniously applied to the assumed golen-age.

Amillennialist or Realized Millennialist are in agreement with the Postmillenialist that we expect the millennium to be an age of imperefection. In oposisition to them, we do not view it as the fulfillment of the golden-age prophecies. We believe the prophesies to be truly golden and perfect not gold plated. This is not to say that no OT prophecies refer to the present age, quite the contrary. But in accord with both Old and New Testament teaching, they find fulfillment of the "golden-age" prophecies in the eternal state, only then can it be said that all that glitters is Gold.

It is also interesting that postmil have to resort to OT prophesies that speak nothing of a golden age but refer unanimously to the golden age of new heaven and new earth which is Heaven.

The New Testament knows absolutlely nothing of IMPERFECT golden-age preaching. While there is a consistent appeal to look for the PERFECT golden-age of heaven, nothing can be found about an imperfect interim. Everywhere the eternal state is held out as the future hope of the church militant. The millennium is never preached as such. The only satisfactory explanation is that the millennium is a present reality not a future hope.

Old Testament passages frequently cited to substantiate the reality of an unrealized millennium(either in its Pre- or Post- form) do not hold any weight.

Isaiah 65:17-25 in one clear example. We both would agree that the passage speaks of a golden-age. The Postmil(as well as the Premil)will argue that the passage mentions children dying at one hundred years old, and sinners accursed at the end of the same period time. Taking this TOO literally, they insist that it must refer to an imperfect golden-age. And since the one thousand years obviously pertain to a time in which sin and death remain, they feel it is perfectly natural to superimpose the one passage on another.

Careful examination, however,shows two faults with this presupposition. First, there must be unquestionable evidence for indentifying the Isaiah prophecy with Revelation 20. This evidence is totally lacking. The two are brought together in an unatural union. Who can prove, scripturally, that when Isaiah wrote "the wolf and the lamb shall feed together," he was speaking of the SAME period that John calls the "thousand years"? There are indications in the passage itself that it is not to be treated literally like "dust" becoming the serpent's food can hardly be literal.

This is why I am Amil......


The Lord only knows of TWO ages, the present age and the age to come. Postmil view teach THREE ages (like to admit or not) ,the present evil age, a future golden age, and the age to come. Jesus NOWHERE predicts some glorious future on earth before the end of the world, as the postmil would have us believe. On the contra, the things He Himself experienced are the things that His Church will experience. A disciple is not above his teacher or a slave above his master,In fact, EVERYONE who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus WILL be persecuted,while evil men and imposters will go from BAD TO WORSE, deceiving and being deceived. (2 Tim. 3:12,13).

In my opinion Christ and Paul were Amillenial

-----Added 7/22/2009 at 11:29:08 EST-----

Well, literal or not...they still have three ages because all three are totally different in its nature.

Satan being bound: Bound in every way? No, the text tells us how and in what ways he is bound. "And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."

How would you define 'Overwhelming', 'all conquering', and 'victorious impact' and where you do you get the idea of those words/phrases from the Scriptures you have cited?

__________________
Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

Andrew,

I use these words to describe a Savior and His gospel that will convert the world. Basically I believe that Jesus has reversed the curse. Just as when Adam fell, he not only impacted the human race but also the whole creation, so when Christ was resurrected he affected the whole creation. Thus we are being restored to the conditions before the curse (i.e. the garden of Eden).

I get these ideas from "the increase of His government will have no end", Isaiah 65 shows me restoration, Christ says go forth and disciple all the nations (there are many more verses that make me postmillennial). This is all very positive to me. Christ has been giving all authority in heaven and on earth. Nothing is going to stop him! Satan has been mortally wounded and the Holy Spirit is turning this world around with His presence. I can't help but use words such as victorious.

It doesn't seem you really answered my question as it has to do with definitions. I agree with your first paragraph and I'm not even postmil. So that's why I am asking for definitions of the words you are using so I can understand what you are saying.

Zechariah Chapter 14.

__________________
Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

Andrew,

I guess I don't catch your drift as I thought I gave you a good idea of what I meant by those terms.

I understand that all Christians believe God is going to be victorious, but the means to the end are completely different. So words do need to be defined.

How is this unique to Postmil? I'm not sure you understood the Amil position when you said you held to it but ok. Again not only must you define your terms but you must also show an intermediate golden age prior to Christ return. Please see my post above

BTW, I'm not really trying to debate here or anything just showing the author of this thread the weakness of a position to maybe sway his decision lol.....

2 Peter 3:10 - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Could very well be apocalyptic language, but it seems to me that, even in a general sense, there is little room here for an earthly millennium.

__________________
Scott Kessler
Covenant Community OPC
Staunton, VA
Covenant Theology
Christian Skepticism
Christianity In History

I know that it can be preterized though I forget how. I know John Owen preterizes it if I'm not mistaken.

Thats why I'm no preterist anymore......how can Christ come like a thief in the night if Christ gave them signs to watch for and flee to the mountains per Matt. 24...I rather as of a 1yr ago confirmed my prophetic prospective view or Double fullfilment view of prophecy via Kim Riddlebarger..........my bad

I've been thinking about Schreiner's recent change to pre-mill. Without discussing all the pros and cons of such a view, I would like to point out one of his exegetical reasons. He believes that Rev 12 describes the work of Christ during the first advent:

So in Rev 12, Satan is thrown from heaven to earth. In Rev 20, Satan is bound in the pit under the earth. According to Schreiner, the language of Satan's binding in Rev 20 is too strong to refer to the present age, which "lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19) and has Satan as "the god of this age" (2 Cor. 4:4), and through which Satan walks as a "lion seeking someone to devour" (1Pet 5:8). Thus, in his mind, Rev 20 must refer to a future time when Satan is MORE bound than he is now.

Now, I consider myself amil, but it's a plausible objection. How should an a- or post- mill relate Rev 12 and 20? Does progressive parallelism help? Is the language of Rev 20 too strong for this present age?

__________________
Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, student

First, I would look at all the NT texts that cite an OT prophecy and see how it is interpreted and applied by Jesus and His disciples. Some examples: Jesus, in reference to John the baptist, Elias is come already... Peter, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, seeing what was ahead, spoke of the resurrection of the Christ... James, After this I will return and build again the tabernacle of David...

For a good sermon series on this lookup Gregory Barkman's series on sermonaudio.com called Interpreting the Old Testament, I think there is 9 or 10 sermons in this series.

other passages: Sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool, some of you standing here will not taste death until the Son of man come's,

For a chronology found in a didactic passage 1 Corinth 15 23-26 Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Most of these passages could support a A-mill or Post-mill position but Isaiah 65:20-25 seems to indicate that death will still occur during this blessed time, so it must not be describing the eternal state when Jesus comes the second time.

__________________
David Morrow
Faith Community Church
Kansas City, MO
http://presupposetheism.blogspot.com

its not literal death, anthropomorphic language...see my post above

will a snake literally eat dirt? will someone die at exactly 100yrs old no more crying or distress or all these language to mean something this is eternal state language....Isaiah 65 in no way is to be interpretated in postmil terms and shouldn't be.

What was the key text for your Millennium position?

What is the best resource on eschatology outside of the Bible? Can you say R-i-d-d-l-e-b-a-r-g-e-r?

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Genesis 1:1

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Key texts:

I Cor 15:20-27

Hebrews 10:12-13

Psalm 22:27-31

Hebrews 10:12-13 is unequivocally clear that Christ will remain IN HEAVEN seated at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made a footstool for his feet. See I Corinthians 15:20-27 for additional support and Psalm 110:1.

__________________
Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

Rolden,

You've presented quite a good case there, was helpful though I'm already an Amil.

I don't see how an interpretation of Dan 9 as relating to the Messiah would be the 'linchpin' or amil if I might put it so. I have not obtained a copy of Riddlebarger's work yet so can anyone shed some light here?

No one single verse, but this was one of many helpful, in the context of all of Scripture:

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Southern Twang,
I hope you are right about the coming revival. Some people think it has been going on lately. Maybe "the increase of His government" means something like it is increasing in that every believer added to Christ's true church increases His government. The man of God said 50 years ago "The Church has surrendered her once lofty concept of God and has substituted for it one so low, so ignoble, as to be utterly unworthy of thinking, worshiping men. This she has done not deliberately, but little by little and without her knowledge; and her very unawareness only makes her situation all the more tragic. The low view of God entertained almost universally among Christians is the cause of a hundred lesser evils everywhere among us. A whole new philosophy of the Christian life has resulted from this one basic error in our religious thinking. With our loss of the sense of majesty has come the further loss of religious awe and consciousness of the divine Presence. We have lost our spirit of worship and our ability to withdraw inwardly to meet God in adoring silence. Modern Christianity is simply not producing the kind of Christian who can appreciate or experience the life in the Spirit. The words, “Be still, and know that I am God,” mean next to nothing to the self-confident, bustling worshiper in this middle period of the twentieth century. This loss of the concept of majesty has come just when the forces of religion are making dramatic gains and the churches are more prosperous than at any time within the past several hundred years. But the alarming thing is that our gains are mostly external and our losses wholly internal; and since it is the quality of our religion that is affected by internal conditions, it may be that our supposed gains are but losses spread over a wider field." - Tozer. And we've gone down hill from there. I do so hope you are right!, though I fear you may not be. I drop a tear now and then just at the thought of such a world as you envisage.

__________________
Daniel
Baptist
Oregon

YES!






Take your pick, mang.

__________________
Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Riddlebarger (pages 149-156) says that Daniel 9 speaks of the Lord Jesus and His work. He is the One spoken of as being cut off, and making a covenant. He notes that the "abomination that causes desolation" has to do with the sacrifices in the temple which were offered after the death of Christ until 70 A.D. Christ has already ratified the covenant with His blood. The animal sacrifices were not necessary anymore and therefore an abomination. Riddlebarger adds that the three and a half years are interpreted in Rev. 12:14.

I don't have his book at present (I'm using my notes I wrote after reading the book). But I think Riddlebarger uses John 5:24 as a key text for the amillenial position.

John 5:24 (ESV) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

cf. Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 2:12. Believers have been raised in Christ. They are reigning with Him. The "already/not yet" tension is seen in these texts.

__________________
Albert, The Republic of the Philippines
Pasig United Covenant Reformed Church (a Reformed church plant)
United Covenant Reformed Churches in the Philippines (UCRCP)
Three Forms of Unity and Westminster Confession of Faith

Psalm 27:1a (AV) The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
“Perseverance is the badge of true saints. The Christian life is not a beginning only in the ways of God, but also a continuance in the same as long as life lasts.” -

Luke 19:15 "And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Hmm thanks for this, gonna go get a copy of the book.

Hi there, it's pretty hard to read your post if you don't paragraph. How much of what you wrote is quoted from Tozer?

The "problem of evil" for the premillennialist convinced me against premillennialism (read it in A Case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger). Postmillennialism sounds nice but I don't know if I can believe it.

__________________
Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

Am sorry to say there no one key verse for me, there are several passages I look at for mine. I am not saying what position I am in, your going have to look at the passages and guess from there. (Hint: I am not dispensational)

Matthew 24:29-30
1 Thessalonians 1:7-10
Revelation 20:2-5
Zechariah 14:6-17
Isaiah 11:6-9
Isaiah 65:20
Revelation chapters 20-21

__________________
David Jolley
Currently SBC, may change
Confessions: 1680-SLBCF/ 2000-BFAM
Escondido, CA