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Revelation & Eschatology discuss We will give account for every idle word? Even believers? And how? in the The Scriptures forums; Will believers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak? And what will this look like? Will there be any rebukes or scoldings ...

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    Pergamum's Avatar
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    We will give account for every idle word? Even believers? And how?

    Will believers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak? And what will this look like?

    Will there be any rebukes or scoldings of believers at the Last Judgment?

    Matthew 12:26.
    Pergamum


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    Yes it applies to believers; Romans 14:12 is clear that we will all give account. Christ is showing that even words uttered carelessly one moment and forgotten the next will be included in this judgment and in fact they are much more important than we usually give credit to because they show our true nature.

    God can rebuke and scold us now, why not at the last judgment? Even though for those in Christ the judgment will be not guilty - the same crime cannot be punished twice - I see no reason why there wouldn't be a preamble - "you did well in this but that was disappointing". I expect to gain the long-sought-for 100% awareness of our sin so that Christ's work and merit is seen in all its glory, to the praise of His name.
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    I can't tell you what it will look like, but I'm thankful that it will not be a trip to the lake of fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    Will believers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak? And what will this look like?

    Will there be any rebukes or scoldings of believers at the Last Judgment?

    Matthew 12:26.
    This is one of the more overlooked parts of the Christian life. It's why it's so important to avail one's self of the ordinary means of grace (Word, prayer, sacraments) and to seek God through them in this life.

    Believers will give account and suffer rewards and loses at the judgment seat of Christ. Not for salvation, but some sort of rewards, some sort of losses. The Bible does not give us a lot of information about what those will be.

    I Corinthians 3

    11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    Even for the unbeliever, he will give account at the judgment. The wrath of God will come on disobedience which is why unbelievers ought refrain from sin.

    Ephesians 5

    1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

    2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
    Last edited by Scott1; 09-01-2009 at 10:05 AM.
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    When the Scripture say's we will give an account for every idle word and you ask the question, "Will beleivers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak?", I feel as if I have been dragged into the world of idle words.
    Alan Hughes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinningplates2 View Post
    When the Scripture say's we will give an account for every idle word and you ask the question, "Will beleivers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak?", I feel as if I have been dragged into the world of idle words.
    It does seem as though "Will believers indeed give account for every word" in the face of the Scripture which clearly says in several places that believers and unbelievers alike will give account... I feel as though I'm hearing "Yea, hath God said?" yet again.
    Todd K. Pedlar
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    I do believe that we will and here's why I believe so: when God says that He doesn't remember our sins anymore I believe what that means is that He doesn't remember them for condemnation's sake. I do believe He remembers them for Christ's glory sake. Meaning God will say Sarah did lied but Christ lived without lying and then imputed His perfect record of not lying onto Sarah and also died and paid for Sarah's lie. I believe He will do that for every sin we've committed at judgement day in order for Christ to receive glory. We won't feel guilt or shame but instead overwhelming and perfect gratitude and love towards our Savior.

    -----Added 9/1/2009 at 11:07:51 EST-----

    Oh, and I believe that our good works which He worked through us will be mentioned and He will be given the glory for those too bc it was His righteousness worked in us by the Holy Spirit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinningplates2 View Post
    When the Scripture say's we will give an account for every idle word and you ask the question, "Will beleivers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak?", I feel as if I have been dragged into the world of idle words.
    It does seem as though "Will believers indeed give account for every word" in the face of the Scripture which clearly says in several places that believers and unbelievers alike will give account... I feel as though I'm hearing "Yea, hath God said?" yet again.
    If you're hearing "yea hath God said" AGAIN, it certainly isn't from me that you suppose that you hear this. Questioning opinions of divines or man-made confessions is not the same as saying "yea, hath God said."

    -----Added 9/1/2009 at 12:45:38 EST-----

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_parsley View Post
    Yes it applies to believers; Romans 14:12 is clear that we will all give account. Christ is showing that even words uttered carelessly one moment and forgotten the next will be included in this judgment and in fact they are much more important than we usually give credit to because they show our true nature.

    God can rebuke and scold us now, why not at the last judgment? Even though for those in Christ the judgment will be not guilty - the same crime cannot be punished twice - I see no reason why there wouldn't be a preamble - "you did well in this but that was disappointing". I expect to gain the long-sought-for 100% awareness of our sin so that Christ's work and merit is seen in all its glory, to the praise of His name.
    Good. Thanks for this.

    I posted this question because I am trying to wrap my mind around how this will come about on the Last Judgment.

    I John speaks of having confidence on the day of judgement and the return of Christ is spoken of as being a terrible event for some but a joyous event for Christians. So, waiting for a rebuke seems at first contrary to the overall joyous mood of the Second Coming for us.

    But it does seem that we will give an account, and will get rewards at the end. For this to happen to 6 billion souls at one event seems overwhelming. Will this "accounting" be given publicly? Will it be temporal, and how long would it take? Of course, it will contibute to the overwhelming nature of God's grace to us, but will we grieve (at least momentarily) at how we have messed up, even as Christians or how we missed opportunities in this life?

    -----Added 9/1/2009 at 12:48:50 EST-----

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinningplates2 View Post
    When the Scripture say's we will give an account for every idle word and you ask the question, "Will beleivers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak?", I feel as if I have been dragged into the world of idle words.
    Notice the 3 questions I ask. Will it happen was the first and preparatory question to set the stage for the scond two, i.e., will it happen to believers, and the big HOW it will happen that most concerns me. What are the mechanics of this and how will this happen during the Second Coming, which is overall a joyous event for Christians.

    What is idle about that?

    -----Added 9/1/2009 at 12:51:45 EST-----

    Quote Originally Posted by Madcow View Post
    I do believe that we will and here's why I believe so: when God says that He doesn't remember our sins anymore I believe what that means is that He doesn't remember them for condemnation's sake. I do believe He remembers them for Christ's glory sake. Meaning God will say Sarah did lied but Christ lived without lying and then imputed His perfect record of not lying onto Sarah and also died and paid for Sarah's lie. I believe He will do that for every sin we've committed at judgement day in order for Christ to receive glory. We won't feel guilt or shame but instead overwhelming and perfect gratitude and love towards our Savior.

    -----Added 9/1/2009 at 11:07:51 EST-----

    Oh, and I believe that our good works which He worked through us will be mentioned and He will be given the glory for those too bc it was His righteousness worked in us by the Holy Spirit.


    Yes,

    I am trying to figure out how we will both give account for every idle word (and I suppose idle action too) and yet the phrase which typifies the believer before Christ on the Last Judgment will yet be "Well done thy good and faithful servant." It appears that there is much more said then this, but that this "well done" is the final word, after our transgression are listed and "forgotten"?

    I am trying to picture this event of the Last Judgment and wondering what all will occur.
    Pergamum


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    TeachingTulip is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    Will believers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak? And what will this look like?

    Will there be any rebukes or scoldings of believers at the Last Judgment?

    Matthew 12:26.

    If this is a true possibility, there is a present day remedy:

    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all righteousness." I John 1:9

    It is my hope that all God sees on my account on that Day, is the imputed righteousness and good works of Jesus Christ.

    But just in case, when idle words or sins occur or come to mind, I can go to my High Priest who sits at the right hand of God, for cleansing. I cannot imagine getting scolded or judged for forgiven sins. That would rob me of all peace of soul.
    Ronda
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    Question timing

    when will this account take place? after we die or at the final day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukeh021471 View Post
    when will this account take place? after we die or at the final day?
    I believe the OP specified the "Last Judgment", where all the dead will be gathered before the white throne. Revelation 20:11-15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinningplates2 View Post
    When the Scripture say's we will give an account for every idle word and you ask the question, "Will beleivers, too, give an account for every idle word we speak?", I feel as if I have been dragged into the world of idle words.
    It does seem as though "Will believers indeed give account for every word" in the face of the Scripture which clearly says in several places that believers and unbelievers alike will give account... I feel as though I'm hearing "Yea, hath God said?" yet again.
    If you're hearing "yea hath God said" AGAIN, it certainly isn't from me that you suppose that you hear this. Questioning opinions of divines or man-made confessions is not the same as saying "yea, hath God said."
    Perhaps I misheard you. I thought you were questioning whether believers would give an account for every word.... and Scripture (not man-made confessions or divines) says so very directly. I guess I missed your point, then.
    Todd K. Pedlar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post

    It does seem as though "Will believers indeed give account for every word" in the face of the Scripture which clearly says in several places that believers and unbelievers alike will give account... I feel as though I'm hearing "Yea, hath God said?" yet again.
    If you're hearing "yea hath God said" AGAIN, it certainly isn't from me that you suppose that you hear this. Questioning opinions of divines or man-made confessions is not the same as saying "yea, hath God said."
    Perhaps I misheard you. I thought you were questioning whether believers would give an account for every word.... and Scripture (not man-made confessions or divines) says so very directly. I guess I missed your point, then.
    Sorry for not making my questions clear. I am more wondering about the "hows" of this and the mechanics and laying out of just how this will all happen.

    Is it temporal? How long will it take to do so for 6 billion? Plus, it would be more than 6 billion because ALL will be raised, right, on the Last Judgment - every soul who has ever lived will give account - and so this is a HUGE event, and "every" idle word is pretty extensive. Plus, our final verdict will be "well-done" and yet our works will be judged and so I am trying to iron out some details here, as much as we CAN know and how this Judgment is both to be one of joy and also trembling for the Christian.

    Any thoughts?
    Pergamum


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    Didn't Jesus already give an account for all of our sins? He bore the Father's judgment and wrath in our stead 2000 years ago. Why would they be brought up again? I thought that God removes our sins from us as far as east is from west.
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    Quote Originally Posted by regener8ed View Post
    Didn't Jesus already give an account for all of our sins? He bore the Father's judgment and wrath in our stead 2000 years ago. Why would they be brought up again? I thought that God removes our sins from us as far as east is from west.
    Your thoughts are exactly why I wanted to discuss this topic more deeply.
    Pergamum


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    I was thinking the same as regener8ed. Why would 'works' suddenly pop up when only Christ saves us? Why would we have that in our faces after Christ has imputed His righteousness upon us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradstreet View Post
    I was thinking the same as regener8ed. Why would 'works' suddenly pop up when only Christ saves us? Why would we have that in our faces after Christ has imputed His righteousness upon us?
    Might not the Christian "works" that are revealed and excuse them on that Day, (John 5:28-29) actually be the believer's confessions of sin and exhibitions of their faith in the righteous works of Christ, generated by the Holy Spirit, rather than their own feeble efforts at righteousness?

    If MY works and actions, ALL tainted by sin, are still going to be held in judgment against me, I am undone!

    I have no Savior! I am without excuse! I am bereft of comfort and peace of soul!

    This troubles me greatly . . .

    I have rested in Christ to spare me from the horrors of Judgment Day.

    Now, how am I to escape His wrath, since I continue to be a sinner despite my faith?

    Truly shaken . . .
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    It appears that we are saved by grace, and yet works do enter into play on the Last Judgment and even the idle words which we speak.
    Pergamum


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    I guess the point is that as Christians, we already KNOW how sinful we are before a Holy and Righteous Judge. He does not need to call us into account for all of our sins, we are already horrified enough about the few He has revealed to us. We are undone, and our only hope is in the PERFECT Savior Jesus Christ. We know that we killed Him with our sins, and that He came to forgive us for it. Also: some of the things that some would call sin are the things that God has created for us to enjoy, and what we truly ought to be concerned with are the wicked intentions of our hearts before a Holy God, not our outward appearance before men.

    (Edited to remove material that after sleeping on it, wasn't comfortable sharing with the entire world.)
    Last edited by regener8ed; 09-02-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_parsley View Post
    Yes it applies to believers; Romans 14:12 is clear that we will all give account. Christ is showing that even words uttered carelessly one moment and forgotten the next will be included in this judgment and in fact they are much more important than we usually give credit to because they show our true nature.

    God can rebuke and scold us now, why not at the last judgment? Even though for those in Christ the judgment will be not guilty - the same crime cannot be punished twice - I see no reason why there wouldn't be a preamble - "you did well in this but that was disappointing". I expect to gain the long-sought-for 100% awareness of our sin so that Christ's work and merit is seen in all its glory, to the praise of His name.
    This is how I understand it. A full account that we may fully know the extent of the mercy... and all praise is due to Him that redeems us, because we are unable to redeeem ourselves.
    Ray Nearhood -
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    Is it temporal? How long will it take to do so for 6 billion? Plus, it would be more than 6 billion because ALL will be raised, right, on the Last Judgment - every soul who has ever lived will give account - and so this is a HUGE event, and "every" idle word is pretty extensive.

    I could, and I believe, wil be done in an instant. It does not matter to God if the number is 6 billion or 6 quadrillion. He is INFINATE and can deal with each and every single person, no matter how many people you can think of at the same time and not get confused.

    Yesterday you said, "It appears that we are saved by grace, and yet works do enter into play on the Last Judgment and even the idle words which we speak." Was this supposed to be saying this is a problem with Grace? If not why add the "and yet" as if there is a possible contradiction?

    I guess I thought somethings were pretty straight forward and this seemed like that type of topic. Let me give youa a straight answer. God does not want us to use idle words. If we do we will not be good children of our heavenly Father. He may not Bless us as much on earth. or we may not be rewarded as much in heaven. But we will not lose our salvation.

    I did not reply to your second question for the simple reason that it is silly. You ask , "even believers?" You know that this was being written to believers.

    The third question, "And how?" I can almost see Mike Myers saying, "Discuss among yourselves!"

    Or maybe I simply did not understand the questions. If that is the case, please forgive me. I do tend to get snarky sometimes.
    Alan Hughes
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    We are saved by grace.

    Yet, on the Last Day we will give account of our works.

    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. THis one, it would seem, would receive a different level of "well done" then one who refused to deny Christ and was killed for their faith.

    Also, there are many parables about servants returning 10-fold, 50-fold, etc.




    Also, in hell some will be beaten with many stripes and some with few. In heaven, we will receive differing degrees of reward (of course, for the works that they were before prepared to do, Ephesians)


    So, it appears that I am advocating inequality in heaven, but I am advocating differing degrees of reward for works. And those in hell will have differing degrees of torment.


    On the temporal nature of the Last Judgment: It would appear that eternity has not yet began and that the temporal world would still be continuing when Christ returns. Therefore, time seems not to be suspended. However, 6 billion people would make for long lines, and so I guess maybe time must be suspended during this Great Assize.

    -----Added 9/2/2009 at 01:11:06 EST-----

    Revelation 20:12-13

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Pergamum


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    TeachingTulip is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    I am quite taken aback by this discussion, for I do not believe Christians will be judged for forgiven sins, and I believe the works we manifest on that Day will prove to be the good works of God that evidence our faith and position in Jesus Christ.

    So I have two serious questions to ask (my husband has already anwered them, but I need to know from the men on this forum, their views):

    1. Was Jesus Christ speaking to believers in Matthew 12:36, or was He warning a "generation of vipers" of producing bad fruits through idle speech?

    2. Does the "dead" in Rev. 20:12-13 refer to those who are alive forevermore in Christ Jesus, or does the "dead" refer to all those NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

    Thanks . . .
    Ronda
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    So, it appears that I am advocating inequality in heaven, but I am advocating differing degrees of reward for works. And those in hell will have differing degrees of torment.
    For what it's worth (not a lot), the writer of 2 Esdras may agree with you:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Esdras 7:88-101
    88"Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. 89During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly. 90Therefore this is the teaching concerning them: 91First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. 92The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death. 93The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that awaits them. 94The third order, they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that throughout their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted. 95The fourth order, they understand the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days. 96The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. 97The sixth order, when it is shown them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. 98The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified. 99This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the previously mentioned are the ways of torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."

    100Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"

    101He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."
    Paul
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    So, it appears that all do not agree.

    Here are my propositions:

    (1) All will be judged for every idle word, even believers

    (2) While we are saved by grace, works will come into play at the Last Judgment

    (3) In hell, some will be beaten with more stripes than others

    (4) The saints will also differ in their reward.

    (5) Somehow at the Last Judgment this will all be sorted out, but I am not sure if this is a temporal thing, a mental thing, etc, as to when and how the saints willl be judged for every idle word.
    Pergamum


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    TeachingTulip is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    So, it appears that all do not agree.

    Here are my propositions:

    (1) All will be judged for every idle word, even believers

    (2) While we are saved by grace, works will come into play at the Last Judgment

    (3) In hell, some will be beaten with more stripes than others

    (4) The saints will also differ in their reward.

    (5) Somehow at the Last Judgment this will all be sorted out, but I am not sure if this is a temporal thing, a mental thing, etc, as to when and how the saints willl be judged for every idle word.
    You have stated these propositions previously, which led to my asking two questions. Can you or will you respond to what I asked and validate from Scripture what you propose?

    1. Was Jesus Christ speaking to believers in Matthew 12:36, or was He warning a "generation of vipers" of producing bad fruits through idle speech?

    2. Does the "dead" in Rev. 20:12-13 refer to those who are alive forevermore in Christ Jesus, or does the "dead" refer to all those NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

    Thanks . . .
    Ronda
    California

  27. #27
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    We are saved by grace and not by works, yes:

    Romans 4:5, "To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast,"



    But the Bible also speaks of our works as important:

    "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5-10).


    "... and each one will receive His own reward according to his own labor" (1 Corinthians 3:8)

    "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone ACCORDING TO HIS WORK." (Revelation 22:12)

    So Jesus answered them and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brother or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or land, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a HUNDREDFOLD now in this time ... and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30)



    Of course, these rewards do not deny grace, as the Heidelberg teaches us below:



    Heidelberg Catechism:



    60. Q. How are you righteous before God?

    A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am still inclined to all evil,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]

    [1] Rom. 3:21-28; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:8-11. [2] Rom. 3:9, 10. [3] Rom. 7:23. [4] Deut. 9:6; Ezek. 36:22; Tit. 3:4, 5. [5] Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8. [6] Rom. 4:3-5; II Cor. 5:17-19; I John 2:1, 2. [7] Rom. 4:24, 25; II Cor. 5:21. [8] John 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom. 3:22.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    61. Q. Why do you say that you are righteous only by faith?

    A. Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, for only the satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God.[1] I can receive this righteousness and make it mine my own by faith only.[2]

    [1] I Cor. 1:30, 31; 2:2. [2] Rom. 10:10; I John 5:10-12.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    62. Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?

    A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

    [1] Deut. 27:26; Gal. 3:10. [2] Is. 64:6.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    63. Q. But do our good works earn nothing, even though God promises to reward them in this life and the next?

    A. This reward is not earned[1]; it is a gift of grace.[2]

    [1] Matt. 5:12; Heb. 11:6. [2] Luke 17:10; II Tim. 4:7, 8.
    Pergamum


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    TeachingTulip is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    We are saved by grace and not by works, yes:

    Romans 4:5, "To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast,"



    But the Bible also speaks of our works as important:

    "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5-10).


    "... and each one will receive His own reward according to his own labor" (1 Corinthians 3:8)

    "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone ACCORDING TO HIS WORK." (Revelation 22:12)

    So Jesus answered them and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brother or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or land, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a HUNDREDFOLD now in this time ... and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30)



    Of course, these rewards do not deny grace, as the Heidelberg teaches us below:



    Heidelberg Catechism:



    60. Q. How are you righteous before God?

    A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am still inclined to all evil,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]

    [1] Rom. 3:21-28; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:8-11. [2] Rom. 3:9, 10. [3] Rom. 7:23. [4] Deut. 9:6; Ezek. 36:22; Tit. 3:4, 5. [5] Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8. [6] Rom. 4:3-5; II Cor. 5:17-19; I John 2:1, 2. [7] Rom. 4:24, 25; II Cor. 5:21. [8] John 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom. 3:22.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    61. Q. Why do you say that you are righteous only by faith?

    A. Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, for only the satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God.[1] I can receive this righteousness and make it mine my own by faith only.[2]

    [1] I Cor. 1:30, 31; 2:2. [2] Rom. 10:10; I John 5:10-12.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    62. Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?

    A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

    [1] Deut. 27:26; Gal. 3:10. [2] Is. 64:6.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    63. Q. But do our good works earn nothing, even though God promises to reward them in this life and the next?

    A. This reward is not earned[1]; it is a gift of grace.[2]

    [1] Matt. 5:12; Heb. 11:6. [2] Luke 17:10; II Tim. 4:7, 8.

    Pergamum,

    This does not address my concerns.

    Perhaps someone else will be willing to answer my specific questions?
    Ronda
    California

  29. #29
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    I Corinthians 6:1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you to try in trivial cases?

    What do you make of these verses in light of this discussion?

    We discussed this topic in Sunday school a couple of Sundays ago, and I wish I had a recording of our pastor's answers to some of these same questions.

    He reminded us that the saints will judge the world, and that even the "good deeds" that we do in this life will be because God has granted us the grace to perform them. So in the end whether or not we have ten crowns or one crown, it will only be one more reason to worship our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I woke up this morning with the words of this old hymn in my head. The hymn is called "Immanuel's Land" (the Sands of Time are Sinking) and it's written by Samuel Rutherford and transcribed into the hymn by Anne Cousin:

    The bride eyes not her garment, but her dear bridgegroom's face
    I will not gaze at glory, but on my King of Grace
    Not at the crown He giveth, but on His pierced hand
    The Lamb is all the glory of Immanuel's Land.
    J Baldwin
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    TeachingTulip is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBaldwin View Post
    I Corinthians 6:1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you to try in trivial cases?

    What do you make of these verses in light of this discussion?
    This discussion is supposed to be about saints being subjected to judgment on resurrection Day for speaking idle words, and not about "rewards" per se.

    I agree with you, that our Confession, according to the Larger Catechism, speaks of the saints standing with Christ in judgement, rather than being subjects of judgment of any kind:

    Q.88. What shall immediately follow after the resurrection?

    A. Immediately after the resurrection shall follow the general and final judgment of angels and men; the day and hour whereof no man knoweth, that all may watch and pray, and be ever ready for the coming of the Lord.

    Q.89. What shall be done to the wicked at the day of judgment"

    A. At the day of judgment, the wicked shall be set on Christ's left hand, and upon clear evidence, and full conviction of their own consciences, shall have the fearful but just sentence of condemnation pronounced against them, and thereupon shall be cast out from the favourable presence of God; and the glorious fellowship with Christ, His saints, and all His holy angels, into hell, to be punished with unspeakable torments, both of body and soul, with the devil and his angels for ever.

    Q. 90. What shall be done to the righteous at the day of judgment?

    A. At the day of judgment, the righteous, being caught up to Christ in the clouds, shall be set on His right hand, and there openly acknowledged and acquitted, shall join with Him in the judging of reprobate angels and men, and shall be received into heaven, where they shall be fully and for ever freed from all sin and misery; filled with inconceivable joys, made perfectly holy and happy both in body and soul, in the company of innumerable saints and holy angels, but especially in the immediate vision and fruition of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, to all eternity, And this is the perfect and full communion, which the members of the invisible church shall enjoy with Christ in glory, at the resurrection and day of judgment."


    So where is any mention of saints being held accountable or judged for "idle words?"

    "Idle words" reflect the bad fruit of "barren" trees. (II Peter 1:8)

    The sons of God produce the good fruit of the Vine, which is never "barren" or "idle" fruit.

    IMO, the OP is terribly off track . . . attempting to subject Godly judgment meant for ungodly men who indeed live idle lives and therefore speak empty, barren, and idle words; proving to be nothing more than tale-bearers and false messengers, . . . and then insinuate their ungodly judgements upon the justified and elect sons of God.

    God forbid!

    The sons of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, do not produce idle, empty, or barren words. The sons of God produce the true and good fruit of the vine, rooted in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. John 1:1-5

    Thus, the sons of God are not subject to judgments or condemnations of this kind, for Jesus Christ died for them:

    "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." Romans 8:33-34
    Last edited by TeachingTulip; 09-02-2009 at 11:36 PM.
    Ronda
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    I am the poster of the OP and I am happy to have it veer and get into tangential issues, which are indirectly related (i.e. degrees of punishment in hell and levels of reward in heaven).


    So, are most agreed here that the saints, too, will give an account for every idle word spoken in this life at the Day of Judgment?
    Pergamum


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    -- David Livingstone

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    I don't think we read of any "scoldings" by God of believers on the last day, or anything like that.

    But - although all are eligible for Heaven and for the enjoymemt of God in Christ - some will receive greater rewards than others, because of what they have done with what God has given them (e.g. Luke 19:11-27).

    This comes under the rubric of sanctification, not justification. It goes without saying that it is vital that this distinction be maintained.

    E.g. Where the Apostle is talking about some suffering loss in I Corinthians 3:15, he is either

    (a) Talking about Pastor's who have produced no true fruit in their ministry

    or

    (b) True Christians who have not made use of their talents.

    The loss they suffer is not loss of any salvation or of Heaven or of Christ but the extra rewards, which are spiritual, (e.g. of shining like the stars in the universe, Daniel 12) of winning many souls for Christ or of the larger cup - which Rev. Winzer mentioned - by which to enjoy God.

    But everyone will be happy because there is no envy in Heaven, as there shouldn't be in the Church on Earth, and we will all be with Jesus forever. Scoldings and chastisements are at an end at death.

    John Newton, commenting on the passage about "idle words, etc", said he didn't know if he would mind his bad idle words to be known on the Day of Judgement, anyway, because he would be so glad that he was saved and home with Christ, he would be completely sanctified, and his bad idle words being widely known would only bring more glory to Christ for saving him, which would make John Newton happier - which is basically what Sarah was saying.
    Last edited by Peairtach; 09-14-2009 at 10:25 AM.
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    J.I. Packer, Concise Theology (p. 256-257):


    In the case of those who profess to be Christ's, review of their actual words and works (Matt. 12:36-37) will have the special point of uncovering the evidence that shows whether their profession is the fruit of an honest regenerate heart (Matt. 12:33-35) or merely the parrot-cry of a hypocritical religiosity (Matt. 7:21-23). Everything about everybody will be exposed on Judgement Day (I Cor. 4:5) and each will receive from God according to what he or she really is...

    Knowledge of future judgment is always a summons to present repentance. Only the penitent will be prepared for judgement when it comes.
    .
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    One of the chilling aspects of doing a lot of study in the prophets during the last couple years is the realization that God was addressing the covenant community -- for the most part, those warnings were addressed to the Old Testament church! God's people face judgment both in this life and in the final judgment. While we have been fully justified by Christ, we will face an accounting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
    J.I. Packer, Concise Theology (p. 256-257):


    In the case of those who profess to be Christ's, review of their actual words and works (Matt. 12:36-37) will have the special point of uncovering the evidence that shows whether their profession is the fruit of an honest regenerate heart (Matt. 12:33-35) or merely the parrot-cry of a hypocritical religiosity (Matt. 7:21-23). Everything about everybody will be exposed on Judgement Day (I Cor. 4:5) and each will receive from God according to what he or she really is...

    Knowledge of future judgment is always a summons to present repentance. Only the penitent will be prepared for judgement when it comes.
    .
    May I add that we are judged as sons, not law breakers. The vestige of our sinful defilement being dealt with at the judgment seat of Christ. Roman Catholics would see this being played out in purgatory, but that viewbisbin error because it teaches that man can atone for his sins. Our merit is in Christ.
    Bill Brown
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    Scripture does not give us a great deal of specifics about what happens at the judgment seat so we must be careful not to speculate as if it were revealed truth.

    We know that faith in Christ's righteousness alone saves us (past, present and future), and that we will be counted as righteous on the judgment day and are even now. We also know we will have glorified bodies and dwell in the presence of our Lord forever. This is magnificent beyond what we can imagine.

    We also have indication that a complete accounting, all the awfulness of our sin in thought, word and deed will be accounted and that some of God's people will be rewarded with things even beyond pardon and eternal life with God.

    Other believers apparently will not have those rewards (again, they are pardoned from sin and receive eternal life) and will suffer some sort of "loss." Maybe that means the loss of further rewards, we don't know. Scripture does not give us much detail to know how or what this will be.

    Sin, and walking a disorderly christian life brings temporal misery. Giving our lives over to self seeking rather than God or neighbor brings temporal misery, a sense of isolation from God (though He never leaves us), a full accounting on judgment day, and perhaps loss of some further rewards in Heaven.

    This ought be all the believer needs to stop excusing his sin, stop rationalizing the license of God's grace... and to repent and seek to glorify God, daily.
    Scott
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwithnell View Post
    One of the chilling aspects of doing a lot of study in the prophets during the last couple years is the realization that God was addressing the covenant community -- for the most part, those warnings were addressed to the Old Testament church! God's people face judgment both in this life and in the final judgment. While we have been fully justified by Christ, we will face an accounting.
    True enough. But you have to realise that all those outwardly in the Covenant people/OT visible Church (maybe the majority at various times), weren't justified, and therefore weren't being sanctified.

    The same is true today. The New Covenant people/visible Church consists of all those who have been baptised and are taking the Lord's Supper, and their children. What proportion are justified in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant and Pentecostal parts of the Visible Church?

    -----Added 9/14/2009 at 03:20:38 EST-----

    Quote from Scott
    Other believers apparently will not have those rewards (again, they are pardoned from sin and receive eternal life) and will suffer some sort of "loss." Maybe that means the loss of further rewards, we don't know. Scripture does not give us much detail to know how or what this will be.
    Is the loss may be realising how you misused/did not use what you had?

    To balance that, Romans 8:28 came to mind.

    These things are somewhat mysterious, but they are there because God is perfectly just and fair, and to motivate us, as if we were without a basis for motivation already.
    Last edited by Peairtach; 09-14-2009 at 03:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
    I am the poster of the OP and I am happy to have it veer and get into tangential issues, which are indirectly related (i.e. degrees of punishment in hell and levels of reward in heaven).


    So, are most agreed here that the saints, too, will give an account for every idle word spoken in this life at the Day of Judgment?
    Pergamum, can you point back in this thread and tell me ONE person who does not think we will give an account of every idle word? If so who.

    As far as you trying to imply that God has a problem with saved Christian being judged in Heaven I have to ask if you have ever read that we (Christians) are to be judged by fire and like gold being refined? That seems to be clear in the Word of God. What is the problem? We are saved from our sins.
    Alan Hughes
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  39. #39
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    Quote from Bill
    The vestige of our sinful defilement being dealt with at the judgment seat of Christ
    All our sins have been forgiven in Christ's blood and a place in Heaven bought by His perfect righteousness (Justification)

    At death the process of Sanctification will be completed and we will achieve moral Perfection.

    There will be no vestige of our sinful defilement to be dealt with at the Judgement.

    There are "top up rewards" for those who have used what they had been given more wisely. There will be no punishment, chastisements, shame, scoldings, regrets, envy, etc, in the Heavenly Kingdom.

    I presume that the following blessed verses apply to all the Redeemed.

    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:3-4, ESV)
    Last edited by Peairtach; 09-14-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Tallach View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jwithnell View Post
    One of the chilling aspects of doing a lot of study in the prophets during the last couple years is the realization that God was addressing the covenant community -- for the most part, those warnings were addressed to the Old Testament church! God's people face judgment both in this life and in the final judgment. While we have been fully justified by Christ, we will face an accounting.
    True enough. But you have to realise that all those outwardly in the Covenant people/OT visible Church (maybe the majority at various times), weren't justified, and therefore weren't being sanctified.

    The same is true today. The New Covenant people/visible Church consists of all those who have been baptised and are taking the Lord's Supper, and their children. What proportion are justified in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant and Pentecostal parts of the Visible Church?

    -----Added 9/14/2009 at 03:20:38 EST-----

    Quote from Scott
    Other believers apparently will not have those rewards (again, they are pardoned from sin and receive eternal life) and will suffer some sort of "loss." Maybe that means the loss of further rewards, we don't know. Scripture does not give us much detail to know how or what this will be.
    Is the loss may be realising how you misused/did not use what you had?

    It could be. Again, don't want to speculate, but there is a basis for the notion of suffering loss.

    I Corinthians 3

    11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    To balance that, Romans 8:28 came to mind.
    This is both sobering and comforting to think of.

    Particularly so as we are in a generation that has rationalized its self-centeredness and demanded that it be taught from the pulpit. God have mercy on us.


    These things are somewhat mysterious, but there because God is perfectly just and fair, and to motivate us.
    And merciful, and knowing all our sin, He still chose us and loved us... glory be to God for that!
    Scott
    PCA
    North Carolina


    Post Tenebras Lux; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4

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