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Revelation & Eschatology Discussion of the book of Revelation, Millennial Views, and Last Things
Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Rev. 22:20)

View Poll Results: What Millennial Belief Do You Hold To?
First Age Covenantal Pre-Millennialism 0 0%
Second Age Covenantal Pre-Millennialism 3 6.38%
Dispensational Pre-Millennialism 2 4.26%
A-Millennialism 22 46.81%
Classical “Golden Age” Post-Millennialism 3 6.38%
Partial Preterist Post-Millennialism 8 17.02%
Reconstruction Post-Millennialism 3 6.38%
Pan-Millennialism 1 2.13%
Undecided 5 10.64%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2008, 08:03 PM
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Cool Redeux Millennialism Poll With New Chart

Ok, I took the time and made a new chart with updated information. So Along with the New Chart Comes a New Poll with Updated Poll Answers...

Here are the options....

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Old 01-28-2008, 08:06 PM
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besides what is in the chart, could you elaborate a bit more on 1 age premil and 2nd age premil?
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:09 PM
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Here is the Summary For Second Age Covenantal PreMillennialism...

1. An unspecified term of Great Tribulation period.
2. Second Coming of Christ, Battle of Mediggo ending with the Great Day of Fire purging the World and Renewing the Heavens and the Earth.
3. A 1000 year period of festal Marriage Feasting with Resurrected Believers and Satan Bound.
4. End of 1000 years, Satan released with his minions ending with the Battle of Jehoshaphat with Satan and Minions thrown into Lake of Fire.
5. Unbelievers Resurrected.
6. Judgment Day


The Difference between this scene and First Age Covenantal Premillennialism. is that First Age Covenantal Premillennialism puts the Great Day of Fire at the end of the 1000 years and a brand new Heaven and Earth compared to a renewed Heaven and Earth.

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Originally Posted by Spear Dane View Post
besides what is in the chart, could you elaborate a bit more on 1 age premil and 2nd age premil?
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:11 PM
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First Age is that the Millennial is in the "Already Age" before the Great Day of Fire..

Second Age is that the Millennial is in the "Age to Come" after the Great Day of Fire.. ALA, John Gill Style...
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:36 PM
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can you merge partial preterist post millenialism with reconstruction post millenialism?
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:57 PM
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This is a tough question. I really wouldn't know where I stand. Could you elaborate a bit more on the Battle of Jehosophat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunaer View Post
Here is the Summary For Second Age Covenantal PreMillennialism...

1. An unspecified term of Great Tribulation period.
2. Second Coming of Christ, Battle of Mediggo ending with the Great Day of Fire purging the World and Renewing the Heavens and the Earth.
3. A 1000 year period of festal Marriage Feasting with Resurrected Believers and Satan Bound.
4. End of 1000 years, Satan released with his minions ending with the Battle of Jehoshaphat with Satan and Minions thrown into Lake of Fire.
5. Unbelievers Resurrected.
6. Judgment Day


The Difference between this scene and First Age Covenantal Premillennialism. is that First Age Covenantal Premillennialism puts the Great Day of Fire at the end of the 1000 years and a brand new Heaven and Earth compared to a renewed Heaven and Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spear Dane View Post
besides what is in the chart, could you elaborate a bit more on 1 age premil and 2nd age premil?
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:07 PM
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I voted second age covenantal premillennial, though I definitely have more to read up on.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:44 PM
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Elaborate from John Gill On the Second Age Covenantal PreMillennialism....

Of The Second Coming of Christ

The personal appearance of Christ will be before the resurrection of the just, which is the first resurrection; that will be at the coming of Christ, which might properly have been treated of before that resurrection; but that I chose to lay before the reader in one connected view, the separate state of the soul after the death of the body, until the resurrection, and the resurrection of it: and for the same reason I have treated of the doctrine of the resurrection in both its branches together, of the just, and of the unjust; though the one will be a thousand years before the other; and many events will intervene between them; as the conflagration of the world, the making of the new heavens and the new earth, and the dwelling and reigning of Christ with his saints therein, and the binding of Satan during that time; all which will follow the personal appearance of Christ, and will be treated of after that, in their order.

The prophecy in Zechariah 14:4, 5 respects the second and personal coming of Christ; since "all the saints" will come with him, and descend with him on earth; when his feet shall stand on the mount of Olives, and when Christ will be king over all the earth (Zech. 14:10), and the saints will be in a sinless state (Zech. 14:20, 21), though there are some things which respect the spiritual reign of Christ, and a time of distress previous to it (Zech. 14:1-3, 6-8).


The prophecy in Malachi 4:1-3 respects not the first but the second coming of Christ, when the day of the Lord shall "burn like an oven"; the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth and all that therein is shall be burnt up; and "all the wicked" shall perish in the conflagration; be burnt up "like stubble", and be properly "ashes under the soles of the feet" of them that fear the Lord; to whom it will be a glorious day, on whom the sun of righteousness shall arise (Mal. 4:4).


Thirdly, the certainty of Christ’s second and personal coming to reign on earth, may be evinced from several sayings and parables delivered by him. Not to omit the petition directed to in the prayer commonly called the "Lord’s Prayer; Thy kingdom come", connected with another, "thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven"; the sense of which is, that the kingdom of God might come, and so come, that the will of God might be done by men on earth as it is done by the angels in heaven; which petition, though it has been put up thousands of times, has never yet been fulfilled, nor never can be but in a perfect state; and there will be no such on earth till the resurrection state takes place, and Christ personally appears in his kingdom and glory.


Of the Conflagration of the Universe

The effects of Christ's second coming and personal appearance are many; as the resurrection of the just, of which we have treated at large already; and the burning of the world, and making new heavens and a new earth, and the reign of Christ there with his saints a thousand years; and thou the general judgment: of all which in their order. And to begin with the universal conflagration; which is strongly and fully expressed by the apostle Peter (2 Pet. 3:10,12), where he says, "the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burnt up": which is to be understood of the burning of the whole sublunary and visible world; signified by the heavens and the earth, taken in a literal and not in a figurative sense.

The destruction here spoken of is of equal extent with the destruction of the world by the flood; as the world, the whole world that then was, was overflowed by the flood and perished; so the heavens and the earth which are now will be dissolved and burnt by fire; and nothing short of such a dissolution of the whole frame of nature can answer such a description.

To answer some queries relative to it; as with what sort of fire the world will be burnt? what the extent of this burning? and whether the earth will be destroyed by it as to its substance, or only as to its qualities?

First, with what sort of fire the world will be burnt? Not with fire taken in a figurative, but in a literal sense; not with metaphorical, but material fire. Fire is sometimes taken figuratively for the wrath of God, whose fury is poured forth like fire (Nah. 1:5; Ps. 18:8; 79:5). But though the burning of the world will be the effect of God's wrath against sinners for their sins, yet that will be executed by means of material fire: the world will be burnt with such fire as will come from heaven, and break forth out of the earth; with such fire from heaven by which Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities of the plain were destroyed; with which Aaron's two sons were consumed; with which the two hundred and fifty men of Korah's company were destroyed; with which the two captains, and their fifties, perished, who came to take the prophet Elijah; of the same sort with that which fell on Job's sheep, and the servants that kept them, and killed them; and such as very often flashes from heaven, and destroys houses, buildings, men, and cattle: and such fire as breaks out of the earth, of which various instances have been given, in volcanoes, and other eruptions; and like that which the historian [35] speaks of, which many hundreds of years ago broke out of the earth in Germany, and burnt towns, villages, and fields everywhere, and was with great difficulty extinguished. So that the world will be destroyed by fire much in the same manner as it was by water: the flood was brought upon it partly by the windows of heaven being opened above, which let down rain; and partly by the fountains of the great deep being broke up below, which sent forth great quantities of water; and both meeting together, drowned the world: so the stores of fire in the heavens being opened, and great quantities issuing out of the bowels of the earth, these joining together will set the whole world on fire, heavens and earth, and bring on their speedy dissolution. Some have thought the stars will have a great influence in this affair. Berosus, an ancient writer, says [36], that it will be according to the course of the stars; and that all earthly things will be burnt up, when all the stars shall meet in Cancer: and one Serarius [37], in the last century, because of the conjunction of all the planets in Sagittarius, a fiery sign, conjectured that the burning of the world was near; and Mr. Whiston [38], of the present age, fancied the world will be burnt by the near approach of a comet to it; so the Brahmins [39]. But for such conjectures there is no foundation; the manner seems to be as before described. This fire will be but temporary, it will last but for a time; how long the world will be burning cannot be known; fire usually makes quick dispatch, and consumes presently; and so it is to be distinguished from that fire in which the wicked will be tormented, that is called everlasting fire, fire which cannot be quenched, the smoke of which ascends for ever and ever (Matthew 25:41; Mark 9:44; Rev. 14:10,11).

Secondly, what will be the extent of this burning? or how far, and to what will it reach? To the heavens, the elements, the earth, and all the works in it.

To the heavens; not to the third heaven, into which the apostle Paul was caught up, and heard and saw what it was not lawful to utter; for this is the throne of God, the habitation of angels and glorified saints, and now the residence of the glorious body of Christ; but the fire will not reach the palace of Jehovah; nor at all annoy any of his courtiers and friends: it is a question, whether it will reach the starry heaven, or at all affect the luminaries of the sun, moon, and stars; for though the city of the perfect saints, the inhabitants of the new heavens and earth, will stand in no need of the sun and moon to enlighten them, it does not follow that these then will not be; but rather it is implied, that they will be, though the saints will not: need them.

Of the New Heavens and Earth

We have seen the world laid in ashes; and now we shall take a view of it as rising out of them. The eastern people had a tale, or fable, concerning a bird, called the "phoenix;" which many writers, both Heathen, Jewish, and Christian, have taken notice of [1]; concerning which they say, there is but one of them in the world at a time; that it is very long lived, according to some it lives a thousand years; and when its end draws near, it makes itself a bed of spices, and seats itself on it, and by some means or other fire takes it, and it is burnt to ashes in it; from whence springs a worm, or egg, and from thence another "phoenix": this some take to be an emblem of the resurrection; but it rather seems to be a fable, devised by the Indians, or Arabians, to transmit to posterity their traditional doctrine of the conflagration, and renovation of the world. The heathens had some notion of good men dwelling in pure and beautiful habitations on earth; so Plato says [2], it was the opinion of the Stoics [3], that at a certain determined time the whole world would be burnt; so that it would immediately be beautified and adorned again, and exist as it was before, perfectly beautiful. This is more clearly revealed in the sacred scriptures; and as the apostle Peter fully expresses the former, as we have seen, so he strongly asserts the latter, and his faith, hope, and expectation of it: nevertheless, though the heavens and the earth shall be burnt up, we believers, we Christians, favored with a divine revelation, "look for," believe and expect, "new heavens and a new earth," in the room of the former, consumed by fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness," righteous persons, and they only (2 Pet. 3:13). The promise of this referred to, is in Isaiah 65:17 which is introduced with a "Behold," as being something extraordinary and wonderful, and worthy of attention; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth," &c. which being obscure in itself, is explained by the apostle: and what makes prophesies respecting the last times, so difficult of interpretation, is, their being mixed; some things in the context belonging to the spiritual, and others to the personal reign of Christ, which is the case here: however, the passage itself [4], most certainly belongs to a perfect state, in which righteousness will dwell, as Peter says; and entirely agrees with John’s account of the inhabitants of the new heavens and the new earth; who represents the new Jerusalem as coming down from heaven, to dwell on the new earth, where the tabernacle of God will be with men; and he will show himself to be their God, and them to be his people; and so it will be a time of great joy and gladness; and in Isaiah it is said, "Behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy!" John says, in this state "there shall be no more sorrow nor crying": which entirely agrees with the prophet, who says, "The voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying!" which cannot be said of any state of the church in the present earth; and is only true of its perfect state in the new heavens and the new earth. The things to be inquired into are, what these new heavens and earth be, and who the inhabitants of them.

What are meant by the new heavens and the new earth in the above passages? these are to be understood not in a figurative, but in a literal sense.

Of the Millennium


I have treated already of the kingly office of Christ, as executed by him in various dispensations, particularly under the gospel dispensation, and have observed, there are two branches of it yet to come; one called the "spiritual," the other the "personal reign;" the former has been considered, and this is a proper place to treat of the latter; which I shall do by showing,
1. That Christ will have a special, peculiar, glorious, and visible kingdom, in which he will reign personally on earth.


I call it a special, peculiar kingdom, different from other kingdoms of Christ; from the kingdom of nature and providence, which lies in the government of this world; which he, as God, has an equal right to with his Father; but when this kingdom will take place, this present world will be at an end: and from his spiritual kingdom, which belongs to him as Mediator; which rule he has exercised in the hearts of his people from the beginning of the world; and which has been, under the gospel dispensation, more large and manifest; and will be more so in the latter day, when his spiritual reign will take place; but this is different from that.


It will be very glorious and visible; Christ’s kingdom, in the spiritual reign, will be very glorious, when all the glorious things spoken of it, will be fulfilled; and it will be very visible, when exalted above all the mountains and hills, the kingdoms of this world: but this will be more so, since Christ will be in it; not only by his Spirit, and the effusions of his grace, but he will personally appear in all his glory, and reign gloriously before his ancients; hence his "appearing" and "kingdom," are put together, as contemporary (2 Tim. 4:1), he in person will appear, and his tabernacle be with men on earth.


This kingdom will be after all the enemies of Christ, and of his people, are removed out of the way. In his spiritual reign antichrist will be destroyed, "with the Spirit," or breath of Christ, his gospel; and with "the brightness of his coming," that clear light which will attend his coming, by the effusion of his Spirit [1]; which will be with such spiritual efficacy, as to dispel all darkness, Pagan, Papal, and Mahometan; and cause an universal reception of the gospel; which will open the way for the Christian princes, to carry their victorious arms every where, and seize upon, and possess all the antichristian states; and in this order things lie in the prophecy of Daniel (Dan. 7:1-28), where, after the vision of the "fourth" beast, of the judgment of it, of the slaying it, and burning its body, the Roman empire, and the remains of it, in antichrist, and the antichristian states; Daniel, had a vision of Christ, the Son of man, coming in the clouds of heaven, and having an universal kingdom given him, which will not be succeeded by any other. And in the same order things lie in the book of the Revelation 19:1-21 where the beast, antichrist, and the kings of the earth, the antichristian princes, are represented as gathering together, to make war with Christ, described as an illustrious Warrior; when the beast and false prophet, antichrist, in both his civil and ecclesiastic characters, are taken and destroyed, and the rest slain, by the sword of Christ’s mouth: all which will be done, with the ruin of the Turk, the Eastern antichrist, at the beginning of the spiritual reign: but still there will remain a most potent enemy, Satan, with his principalities and powers; wherefore, in Revelation 20:1-15 an angel descends from heaven, who is no other than Christ, who will then personally descend from thence; described as having a great chain, and a key in his hand; the one to bind Satan and all his angels; the other to open the bottomless pit, and cast them in it, and lock it up; that they may neither deceive the nations, nor disturb the saints, for the space of a thousand years [2]. And all enemies being thus out of the way, follows the account of the Millennium, or personal reign of Christ.

This glorious and visible kingdom of Christ, will not take place till after the resurrection of the just, and the renovation of the world [3]. As soon as Christ personally appears, the dead in him will rise first; this is the first resurrection, which they that have a part in, shall reign with Christ a thousand years; as appears from the above place in the Revelation referred unto. These "children of the resurrection," as Christ calls them (Luke 20:35,36), and who will be worthy of "that world," the new world, in which Christ and they will reign, will be like the angels, die no more; nor will they eat and drink, in a corporal sense; nor marry and be given in marriage; carnal appetites will not be indulged; nor carnal pleasures enjoyed: in this state, nothing but pure, refined, spiritual pleasures, will be had, suited to the bodies and souls of men, united in the resurrection state. Our Lord, indeed, speaks of his disciples eating and drinking at his table, in his kingdom; and of his drinking new wine in his Father’s kingdom, which is the same (Luke 22:30; Matthew 26:29), but then all this is to be understood of divine repasts, of spiritual joys and pleasures, they shall then partake of.

This kingdom of Christ will be bounded by two resurrections; by the first resurrection, or the resurrection of the just, at which it will begin; and by the second resurrection, or the resurrection of the wicked, at which it will end, or nearly; for it is expressly said, that "the rest of the dead," that is, the wicked, "lived not again until the thousand years were finished": now in the interval between the resurrection of the one, and the resurrection of the other, will be the millennium, or thousand years reign of Christ and his people together.

This kingdom will be before the general judgment, especially of the wicked. There is a particular judgment that passes on every man at death; "After death, judgment!" and there will be a virtual judgment immediately upon the appearance of Christ, who will come to judge both "quick" and "dead." Dead saints will be raised, and living saints changed, and both be with Christ; which will be virtually pronouncing them righteous; and as for the wicked, their bodies will be burnt in the conflagration of the earth, and their souls will be shut up with Satan and his angels in the bottomless pit; which will be virtually pronouncing them guilty: but the formal judgment will proceed afterwards. Indeed, in the thousand years reign, will be the judgment of the saints, as will be seen hereafter; and some time after the close of the millennium, will come on the general judgment of the wicked; for John, after he had given an account of the former (Rev. 20:1-15), relates a vision of the latter.

the millennium reign will be there, is clear, since the Gog and Magog army, at the end of the thousand years, are said to go up "on the breadth of the earth," and "compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city;" the same with the saints before described as reigning with Christ, which therefore must be on the earth; and the same with the holy city John saw descending from God out of heaven, that is, on earth, with whom his tabernacle is said to be, and he to dwell with them (Rev. 20:4,6,8,9; 21:2,3). But then this kingdom will not be upon this present earth, or upon this earth in its present circumstances; the present heavens and earth will be burnt up before this kingdom takes place; this world is not good enough for the second Adam, and his saints, to dwell in; the curse must be removed from it, and it must be refined, and new fitted up, for such inhabitants; and all the wicked of it be no more in it, as unfit to dwell where such persons do. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, nor never will be. This has been the mistake of many, fancying that the millennium will be in the present earth; which have given the adversaries of this doctrine, an occasion to object unto it; as subversive of civil government, and as encouraging sedition and rebellion in commonwealths, and as giving just umbrage to the kings and princes of the earth, and to all civil magistrates.

What will become of the new earth, after the thousand years of the reign of Christ and his saints on it are ended? whether it will be annihilated or not? My mind has been at an uncertainty about this matter; sometimes inclining one way, and sometimes another; because of the seeming different accounts of it in Isaiah 66:22 where it is said to "remain" before the Lord, and in Revelation 20:11 where it is said to "flee away" from the face of the judge; as may be seen by my "notes" on both places, and by a "correction" at the end of the "fourth" volume on the Old Testament; but my last and present thoughts are, that it will continue for ever; and that the passage in Revelation 20:11 is a rhetorical exaggeration of the glory and greatness of the judge, which appeared such to John in the vision, that the heavens and earth could not bear it, and therefore "seemed" to disappear; the phrase, "from whose face," which is unusual, seems to suggest and confirm it. I am of opinion therefore, that the new earth will be a sort of an apartment to heaven, whither the saints will pass and repass at their pleasure; and which agrees with other scriptures, which speak of the saints dwelling on, and inheriting the earth for ever .

Of the Battle of Jehosophat of the Army Gog and Magog

Who the Gog and Magog army are, that shall encompass the camp of the saints, when the thousand years are ended? What makes an answer to this the more difficult is, that at the general conflagration of the present earth, all the wicked in it will be burnt up, and none but righteous persons will dwell in the new earth; it is to no purpose therefore, to think of Turks, Tartarinns, Scythians, and other barbarous nations [39], types of these; nor of any remains [40] of the wicked who escaped the general destruction, as supposed; nor of such frightened at the first appearance of Christ, who fled to the remotest parts, and now resume their courage, and come forth: it is a strange absurd notion of Dr. Burnet [41], that these will be men born of the earth, generated from the slime of the ground, and the heat of the sun; and increasing and multiplying after the manner of men, by carnal propagation, after a thousand years will become very numerous, as the sand of the sea, and make the attack they are said to do. But there is no need to have recourse to so gross an expedient as this: the persons are at hand, and easy to be met with; they are "the rest of the dead," the wicked, who live not till the thousand years are ended; and then will live, being raised from the dead, even all the wicked that have been from the beginning of the world; which accounts for their number being as the sand of the sea: and these rising where they died, and were buried, will be in and come from the four quarters of the world; and as they died enemies to Christ, and his saints, they will rise such; hell and the grave will make no change in them; and as they laid down with the "weapons of war, their swords under their heads," they will be in a readiness, and rise with the same malicious and revengeful spirit; and though it will be a mad enterprise, to attack saints in an immortal state, who cannot die; and Christ, the King of kings, at the head of them; yet when it is considered, that they will rise as weak and feeble: as unable to resist temptation, and as capable of deception as ever; and what with being buoyed up with their own number, and the posse of devils at the head of them; and especially considering the desperateness of their case, and this their last struggle to deliver themselves from eternal ruin; it may not so much be wondered at, that they should engage in this strange undertaking.

What the fire will be, which shall come down from heaven, and destroy the Gog and Magog army? Not material fire; but the wrath and indignation of God, which will be let down into their consciences; and which will so terrify and dispirit them, that they will at once desist froth their undertaking; like the builders of the tower of Babel, when the Lord not only confounded their language, but smote their consciences for their impiety. The issue of all this will be, the casting of the devil and his angels into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are; and the everlasting destruction of the wicked, soul and body, in the same, after the general judgment is over; which is the next thing to be considered.


JUDGMENT DAY


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spear Dane View Post
Could you elaborate a bit more... ?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:36 PM
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Where is the 'my head is spinning' emoticon?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:42 PM
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Where is the 'my head is spinning' emoticon?
I want Jesus to return right now!!
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:43 PM
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Where is the 'my head is spinning' emoticon?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:44 PM
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If we're going to split hairs that finely, how about partial preterist amillenialism (Jay Adams), idealist amil (Riddlebarger), optimistic amil, etc.
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:03 AM
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can you merge partial preterist post millenialism with reconstruction post millenialism?
I was thinking the same thing ...
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:36 AM
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Where is the 'my head is spinning' emoticon?


I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:09 AM
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can you merge partial preterist post millenialism with reconstruction post millenialism?
I was thinking the same thing ...
Yes please do, as I am both.
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:35 AM
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I am an optimistic amillennialist
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Old 01-29-2008, 12:45 PM
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Daniel, Daniel, Daniel,



LoL, I got those categories as least the best I could from you in the previous thread...

From Daniel:

"1. Some hold its a golden-age within the NT, as is represented in the graphic.
2. Some hold its the whole NT age, as with Amils.
3. Some hold its from 70 AD until a rebellion against Christendom "Satan's little season".

No it would not make them amils as they believe in the world-wide advance of the gospel and in the Christianization of societies, which is not the traditional amil view."


As best as I could read it, I took Number 2 as Reconstruction Post Mill as worldwide advancement and christianization of societies along with the entire NT age.

I took number 3 as what you mentioned as Preteristic with it starting at 70 AD and a Satan's Little Season as the End...

So where and how can I make this chart better? Should Partial Preteristic Post Mill and Reconstruction Post Mill stand but with an addition of the two combined as another option?

Also, should the chart contain Optimistic A-Mill, Mid Trib Dispensational PreMill, and Post Trib Dispensational PreMill, and PreWrath Dispensational PreMill?

Leave it to the members of the Puritanboard to make chart making difficult for End Times or just about anything else...








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