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Revelation & Eschatology discuss Preterist & Historicist Prophecy Charts in the The Scriptures forums; I would appreciate any comments that you may have on these charts I made to reflect the Preterist and Historicist eschatological views... I also have ...

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    Exclamation Preterist & Historicist Prophecy Charts

    I would appreciate any comments that you may have on these charts I made to reflect the Preterist and Historicist eschatological views...





    I also have a chart of the Futurist view as well if you are interested.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA
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    baron's Avatar
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    Your chart looks nice to me, but I do not know much about this. I was planning on looking into this next year.

    One thing that confused me is why did you list the Emperor's alphabetical instead of when the reigned?
    John Komenda
    Attending: Refreshing Springs Church
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    http://www.refreshingspringsministri...c_id=140000066

    Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. Is.65:24 ESV

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    Quote Originally Posted by baron View Post
    One thing that confused me is why did you list the Emperor's alphabetical instead of when the reigned?
    I made three charts to represent all three of the major eschatological views, and each chart has a list of some kind. The Preterist View has a list of emperors, the Historicist View has a list of kingdoms, and the Futurist View has a list of nations. It seemd to me to be most natural to list the kingdoms and nations in alphabetical order. But I think I agree with you about the list of emperors. I may change my next version of the chart to list the emperors in sequential order.

    Thank you for your comment.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    On the Historicist chart, it seems the Second Coming is labeled around 2011 or so. Why is that? The chart also leaves out the millennium as a future golden state for the church, after the destruction of Antichrist, conversion of the Jews and calling of the fullness of the Gentiles.

    But, perhaps I am reading the chart wrong?
    Seth Stark
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    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    On the Historicist chart, it seems the Second Coming is labeled around 2011 or so. Why is that?
    The Historicists beleive the tribulation was to last 1,260 years. Thomas Newton (AD 1755) suggested that the beginning of the tribulation was either in AD 538-606 (when the Pope became a spiritual leader) or AD 755-756 (when the Pope became a temporal ruler). I made the chart using the later date.

    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    The chart also leaves out the millennium as a future golden state for the church, after the destruction of Antichrist, conversion of the Jews and calling of the fullness of the Gentiles.
    The Historicist View would see the "millennium" as the manifestation of the "Kingdom of God" after the "Second Coming." I tried to show this on the chart by having the colored section labeled "Kingdom of God" as filling the earthly kingdoms at the "Second Coming."

    Thank you for your comment.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    baron's Avatar
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    Was just wondering when or what year does the 1,260 years start. You have that little white sliver that goes back to 350-400 AD? Some one told me they think the 1,260 years starts latter than 800 AD?
    John Komenda
    Attending: Refreshing Springs Church
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    Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. Is.65:24 ESV

    The Scriptures teach us the best way of living, the noblest way of suffering, and the most comfortable way of dying. John Flavel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baron View Post
    Was just wondering when or what year does the 1,260 years start. You have that little white sliver that goes back to 350-400 AD? Some one told me they think the 1,260 years starts latter than 800 AD?
    The Pope is unique in that he is both a spiritual ruler and a temporal ruler. When the Pope became a spiritual ruler is hard to pinpoint in history, but it seems to be no earlier than AD 533 and no later than AD 606. But when the Pope became a temporal ruler is narrowed down to AD 755-756.

    Therefore, I show the *beginning* of the *rise* of the Papacy as being AD 533 and the *end* of the *rise* to be AD 756. That is why the colored section labeled "little horn" has a slanted beginning.

    The Historicists that I have read usually start the 1,260 years at either the beginning of the Pope's spiritual reign or at the beginning of the Pope's temporal reign. I use the beginning of his temporal reign in the chart.

    I would be interested in seeing who you are referring to that would place the beginning of the 1,260 after AD 800, because it seems that most Historicists placed it somewhere between AD 533 and AD 756.

    Thank you for your comment.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    Your labels are not accurate. Many amillennialists I know are not full preterists. We believe that there have been antichrists but believe there will be a final antichrist. We also believe the second coming is future. We just believe the millennium is the church age, which is now. In the end, Christ will come, there will be a general resurrection, followed by the judgement. This will usher in the age to come, which is eternity.
    Rev. Andy Eppard
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    Perhaps I should have asked this first, but: how are you defining "preterist" "historicist" and "presentist"?
    Seth Stark
    Member, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Springfield, IL (though I live in Decatur, IL)

    (Formerly Ruling Elder, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA)
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformedminister View Post
    Your labels are not accurate. Many amillennialists I know are not full preterists. We believe that there have been antichrists but believe there will be a final antichrist. We also believe the second coming is future. We just believe the millennium is the church age, which is now. In the end, Christ will come, there will be a general resurrection, followed by the judgement. This will usher in the age to come, which is eternity.
    I did not use the label "antichrist" on purpose, because the Bible does not use the definite article version "the Antichrist" anywhere. The label "little horn" that I used refers to the "little horn" in Daniel 7.

    I think you are describing the Partial-preterist View. In order to update the chart to reflect that view, can you answer a few questions...

    Who are the "ten horns" of Daniel 7:7?
    Who is the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8?
    When was the beast "destroyed" in Daniel 7:11?
    How are the other beasts "prolonged" in Daniel 7:12?
    When is the "latter time" of Daniel 8:23?
    When was the deadly "wound" of Revelation 13:3?
    When was the deadly would "healed" in Revelation 13:3?

    I would be interested in the replies of anyone familiar with the Partial-preterist View.

    Thank you for your comment.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist View Post
    I did not use the label "antichrist" on purpose, because the Bible does not use the definite article version "the Antichrist" anywhere. The label "little horn" that I used refers to the "little horn" in Daniel 7.
    Just by way of a side note: 1 John 2:18 in the New King James Version, reads: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

    The deletion of the word "the" in the ESV, NIV, NASB, etc is due to a textual variant between the Nestle-UBS and Textus Receptus editions of the Greek New Testament.

    But, I digress...
    Seth Stark
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    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    Perhaps I should have asked this first, but: how are you defining "preterist" "historicist" and "presentist"?
    All of the various views of prophecy can be divided into three distinct "camps." Those that believe the bulk of "end times" prophecy was fulfilled at the beginning of the Church age, those who believe that prophecy is fulfilled at the end of the Church Age, and those who believe that prophecy is fulfilled throughout the Church Age.

    Specifically, I am using the dating of "the reign of the little horn of Daniel 7" as the basis for defining "Antichrist is Past", "Antichrist is Present", or "Antichrist if Future."

    P.S. The "Historicist View" used to be called the "Presentist View" or "Protestant View."
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist View Post
    I would be interested in seeing who you are referring to that would place the beginning of the 1,260 after AD 800, because it seems that most Historicists placed it somewhere between AD 533 and AD 756.
    The person I refered to is not a scholar, when I see them again I will ask their reason for this late date. Also why they think for such a late date and who they got the idea from.
    John Komenda
    Attending: Refreshing Springs Church
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    http://www.refreshingspringsministri...c_id=140000066

    Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. Is.65:24 ESV

    The Scriptures teach us the best way of living, the noblest way of suffering, and the most comfortable way of dying. John Flavel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baron View Post
    The person I refered to is not a scholar, when I see them again I will ask their reason for this late date. Also why they think for such a late date and who they got the idea from.
    Okay. Thank you.

    In the meantime, is there anyone on here that is very familiar with the Partial-preterist view and could answer these questions for me...

    Who are the "ten horns" of Daniel 7:7?
    Who is the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8?
    When was the beast "destroyed" in Daniel 7:11?
    How are the other beasts "prolonged" in Daniel 7:12?
    When is the "latter time" of Daniel 8:23?
    When was the deadly "wound" of Revelation 13:3?
    When was the deadly would "healed" in Revelation 13:3?

    I would like to create a chart for the Partial-preterist view.
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    "Preterist" is not something that is easy to define by charts, because of differences within the preterist "camp".

    Kenneth Gentry is an orthodox preterist, yet places all of Revelation 5-19 in the first century, believing Babylon to be first century Jerusalem.

    Greg Bahnsen was an orthodox preterist, but he extended Revelation 5-19, to the downfall of the Western Roman Empire, in A.D. 453, believing as he did that Babylon was the City of Rome.

    I tend to be somewhat preterist, but believing that Babylon is probably the apostate Church, that the Beast from the Sea - although manifested in Nero and the Roman Empire in the first century and in Revelation - continues wherever there is statist persecution of God's people, tend to believe that Revelation 19 will be a point in future history where the Gospel will defeat such forces.

    Technically and logically speaking, amils can be preterist, historicist, or idealist ("presentist"?), and postmils can be preterist, historicist or idealist.

    It's quite a complex scene re these aspects of eschatology.

    When was the deadly "wound" of Revelation 13:3?
    When was the deadly would "healed" in Revelation 13:3?
    I tend to think that this may represent the point at which the Roman Empire was "Christianised" under Constatine but wasn't properly Christianised. It looked as if Christianity had defeated the Beast, but she hadn't, yet. She still hasn't.

    Bahnsen and Gentry no doubt have different ideas.
    Richard Tallach
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peairtach View Post
    "Preterist" is not something that is easy to define by charts, because of differences within the preterist "camp".
    True. The charts represent the most common versions of each of the three basic eschatological views.

    May I ask you, where in time do you place "that man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:2)?
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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    Well said Richard. Read Rushdoony's commentary on Daniel (Thy Kingdom Come) and you'll see he was an Idealist Post-Mill.
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    Read Rushdoony's commentary on Daniel (Thy Kingdom Come) and you'll see he was an Idealist Post-Mill.
    Where did Rushdoony place "that man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) in history?

    How about all of you on this forum...

    Where do you place "that man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) in history?

    Presentist - I agree with the confessions that state the Pope of Rome is "that man of sin."
    Philip Johnson
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    Where is the second coming on the Amill/Preterist chart?


    Village Community Church of Wrightwood

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    Quote Originally Posted by KMK View Post
    Where is the second coming on the Amill/Preterist chart?
    I do need to add that to the chart.

    I think when I initially made the charts, I was making room for the full preterists.

    But I think the majority of the Amill/Preterists would place it in the future so I should have the chart reflect that.
    Philip Johnson
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    Only Hyper-preterists do not place place the second coming in the future. HPs are not orthodox. I don't think they need a chart.


    Village Community Church of Wrightwood

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    Quote Originally Posted by KMK View Post
    Only Hyper-preterists do not place place the second coming in the future. HPs are not orthodox. I don't think they need a chart.
    True.

    P.S. I think they prefer to call themselves Full-preterists.
    Philip Johnson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presentist View Post
    P.S. I think they prefer to call themselves Full-preterists.
    Mormons prefer to call themselves 'Christians'.


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    May I ask you, where in time do you place "that man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:2)?
    Almost certainly the Papacy, although any system that pretends to be Christian but puts an idol in the place of Christ is an antichrist.

    I think when I initially made the charts, I was making room for the full preterists.
    "Full preterists" are heretics who don't deserve your labour on charts.

    Some other "eschatalogical personalities":

    The (1st) Beast from the Sea (Rev 13:1) represents statist and pagan persecution. In the immediate first century context that meant Nero and the Roman Empire, but the Beast didn't die with them but spans the centuries.

    The (2nd) Beast from the Earth (Rev 13:11) represents false teaching - including Antichrist and antichrists. In the immediate first century context that false teaching advocated compromise with the Roman Empire's religious claims. But it didn't come to an end with the first century antichrists.

    So Revelation 13 points out the twin great enemies of the Church - persecution and false teaching.

    And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.(Rev 13:17)
    The above passage is referring to the "buying and selling" of the Gospel, and statist and pagan interference and control of such.

    E.g.
    I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (Rev 3:18)
    Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (Is. 55:1)
    Last edited by Peairtach; 12-13-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peairtach View Post
    "Full preterists" are heretics who don't deserve your labour on charts.
    I agree.

    I will add the second coming to the "Antichrist is Past" chart the next time I update it and will relabel "Preterist" to "Partial-Preterist."
    Philip Johnson
    Grace Fellowship Southern Baptist Church
    Danielsville, GA

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