I spoke to God. He said you werent predestined to hold this view....
__________________ "I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown
Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen
I'm climbing around on the slippery wet bank of Optimistic Amil and one slippery step could send me slipping off the bank and into the Postmill stream, never to return.
__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi
"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon
"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15
I'm climbing around on the slippery wet bank of Optimistic Amil and one slippery step could send me slipping off the bank and into the Postmill stream, never to return.
Is one foot on a banana peel?
The Following User Says Thank You to Curt For This Useful Post:
Consider that Christ will be at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool.
__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/ Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to larryjf For This Useful Post:
__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Theognome For This Useful Post:
How does it compare with Jack Davis's Christ's Victorious Kingdom? I'm rereading that now.
I haven't read that one, so I can't give a comparison- only a recommendation for the Mathison book. It's a great starting place for someone wanting to learn the basics of the Postmillenial view.
I'm climbing around on the slippery wet bank of Optimistic Amil and one slippery step could send me slipping off the bank and into the Postmill stream, never to return.
There are lots of resources on that blog. But I stopped studying for a while. When I start again, it is with reading Gentry's new 3rd Edition of He Shall Have Dominion, fresh off the press.
I am almost convinced of postmil. Certain things we are predestined to not accept, e.g., sin in our lives. However, there are wonderful people in postmil, amil, and historical premil that are all Reformed in their orientation.
__________________
Carol
Plant City, Florida
That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:8,9
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK
His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Richard Tallach For This Useful Post:
Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Gates are defensive.
__________________ Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH
“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-
The Following User Says Thank You to Confessor For This Useful Post:
"Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool"
"...Your Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven..."
"Go and make disciples of all nations..."
"And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to Him, and He went out conquering and to conquer."
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
__________________ Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jon Peters For This Useful Post:
"Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool"
"...Your Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven..."
"Go and make disciples of all nations..."
"And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to Him, and He went out conquering and to conquer."
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
An unimpeded logical implication of this is that Christ's kingdom affects none of this earth, which is clearly false. If you suppose "my kingdom is not of this world" to mean that it is not manifested on Earth, then where do you draw the line to "cut off" this logical implication?
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Confessor For This Useful Post:
"Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool"
"...Your Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven..."
"Go and make disciples of all nations..."
"And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to Him, and He went out conquering and to conquer."
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
But His kingdom is in the world, but not of this world. It rules this world, but this world is not its origin.
John 17:15-16 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastark For This Useful Post:
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
Excuse me? Ummm...that is quite untrue. According to Ammillenialism history, especially church history, is marching forward to the final consumation when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, and to openly acknowledge and aquit all those who believe on Him. We are awaiting the day when the kingdom of God will be fully realized, when there is no more mixture of wheat and chaff in the Church of Christ, but will be a pure and spotless bride. That, my friend, is where history is going. Just because we ammillenialists think of success differently than do the posties, doesn't mean we think history is going nowhere. Get the doctrines of those you disagree with straight.
__________________ Steven J. Carr (Sven) http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com/ Eagan, MN PCA
"Weak is the effort of my heart / And cold my warmest thought / But when I see thee as thou art / I'll praise thee as I ought."--John Newton
Trophy Wife/Arm Candy: Crystal Ann Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sven For This Useful Post:
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
Yup and all this will occur at the consummation of all things, at His coming but not before, to think so is to participate in "Jewish Dreams"......None of the verses offered by our Postmil brothers necessitate a postmil interpretation but rather seeing these fulfillments in Christ coming to once and for all destroy all His enemies hence the "until" and "til" key words, is to correctly exegete these passages. But I've gone through this here on these board exhaustively so not really interested in going back and forth, just thought I share some thoughts, carry on.
-----Added 6/11/2009 at 01:27:10 EST-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
Excuse me? Ummm...that is quite untrue. According to Ammillenialism history, especially church history, is marching forward to the final consumation when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, and to openly acknowledge and aquit all those who believe on Him. We are awaiting the day when the kingdom of God will be fully realized, when there is no more mixture of wheat and chaff in the Church of Christ, but will be a pure and spotless bride. That, my friend, is where history is going. Just because we ammillenialists think of success differently than do the posties, doesn't mean we think history is going nowhere. Get the doctrines of those you disagree with straight.
Thank you.....that is one of the weakest arguments that have duped individuals into postmil thinking while not even knowing what the other camps views are, anyone need a straw? this is very frustrating including the whole so called "optimistic amil" as if we believed in a defeated foe....
__________________
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus
" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul
The Following User Says Thank You to Roldan For This Useful Post:
ALLthe ends of the earth shall REMEMBER
and turn to the LORD,
and ALL the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
Psalm 86:9
ALL the nations you have made SHALL COME
and worship before you, O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.
Revelation 15:3,4
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy. All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."
And to tag along with the comments above about Christ not returning until His enemies have been made a footstool for his feet, here is one more from Hebrews 10:12-13:
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ waits IN HEAVEN until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. Have Christ enemies already been subjected to him? Hardly.
I have yet to see any serious rejoinder to these passages from premils or amils.
Premils claim the Psalm passages above and the other obvious optimistic passages throughout Scripture happen during the 1000 year reign; but obviously the debate has always been if (1) they can prove conclusively that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 year period as opposed to a long aeon of time, and (2) they must explain why there is no mention of a literal 1000 year period of Christ visibly, bodily reigning in Jerusalem anywhere else in Scripture (The Micah 4 chapter says nothing of time duration, and the Revelation 20 passage mentions nothing of location. The premil scheme is simply a disjointed jigsaw puzzle of verses weaved together to give an appearance of the doctrine being valid).
Regarding the literalness of the 1000 number, Gentry does a good job of giving numerous examples where the number 1000 is not used in a literal sense (e.g. Psalm 50:10, the "thousand" hills; are there literally only a thousand hills on the earth? How do you define what a hill is?)
__________________
Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK
The Following User Says Thank You to R Harris For This Useful Post:
ALLthe ends of the earth shall REMEMBER
and turn to the LORD,
and ALL the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
Psalm 86:9
ALL the nations you have made SHALL COME
and worship before you, O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.
Revelation 15:3,4
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy. All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."
And to tag along with the comments above about Christ not returning until His enemies have been made a footstool for his feet, here is one more from Hebrews 10:12-13:
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ waits IN HEAVEN until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. Have Christ enemies already been subjected to him? Hardly.
I have yet to see any serious rejoinder to these passages from premils or amils.
Premils claim the Psalm passages above and the other obvious optimistic passages throughout Scripture happen during the 1000 year reign; but obviously the debate has always been if (1) they can prove conclusively that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 year period as opposed to a long aeon of time, and (2) they must explain why there is no mention of a literal 1000 year period of Christ visibly, bodily reigning in Jerusalem anywhere else in Scripture (The Micah 4 chapter says nothing of time duration, and the Revelation 20 passage mentions nothing of location. The premil scheme is simply a disjointed jigsaw puzzle of verses weaved together to give an appearance of the doctrine being valid).
Regarding the literalness of the 1000 number, Gentry does a good job of giving numerous examples where the number 1000 is not used in a literal sense (e.g. Psalm 50:10, the "thousand" hills; are there literally only a thousand hills on the earth? How do you define what a hill is?)
Again, these passages will be fulfilled at His coming, no need to force a postmil interpretation into the text.
The Following User Says Thank You to Roldan For This Useful Post:
Again, these passages will be fulfilled at His coming, no need to force a postmil interpretation into the text.
The typical postmil rejoinder to this is that some passages, such as Isaiah 65:20, must be referring to the millennium, for they speak of death.
However, I am presently unaware of other passages that fit the same category (pointing to prosperity that cannot exist in the new heavens and new earth), due to limited study on my part.
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Again, these passages will be fulfilled at His coming, no need to force a postmil interpretation into the text.
And where exactly does it state explicitly in these passages that these things occur at his coming? I think you and the other amils are forcing the text here.
Look at I Corinthians 15:23-26:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Recall Hebrews 10:12-13, he is WAITING in HEAVEN, sitting at the right hand of the Father UNTIL his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ SITS, He WAITS, and He REIGNS until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R Harris For This Useful Post:
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
Greg Bahnsen said in his Victory in Jesus book on postmil that the majority of postmillennarians agree with amillennarians on the timing of the millennium but disagree only on the nature of it. He himself employed the same arguments for the timing of the millennium that amillennarians have used.
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
Greg Bahnsen said in his Victory in Jesus book on postmil that the majority of postmillennarians agree with amillennarians on the timing of the millennium but disagree only on the nature of it. He himself employed the same arguments for the timing of the millennium that amillennarians have used.
I'm at work and without various resources, but I'm not in agrement with Greg Bahnsen on that. Even just a cursory look at the terms themselves ( post VS a) shows otherwise.
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
Greg Bahnsen said in his Victory in Jesus book on postmil that the majority of postmillennarians agree with amillennarians on the timing of the millennium but disagree only on the nature of it. He himself employed the same arguments for the timing of the millennium that amillennarians have used.
I'm at work and without various resources, but I'm not in agrement with Greg Bahnsen on that. Even just a cursory look at the terms themselves ( post VS a) shows otherwise.
Theognome
He also made the point that the terms describing the positions were poorly chosen. Additionally, he made that point in one of the first three chapters of the book, which were transcribed lectures. Therefore it is doubtful that he cited anything on it.
Really though, "post-" and "a-" don't themselves seem to indicate a different timing of the millennium. The former indicates when Christ will return in relation to the millennium, and the latter indicates that there will not be a millennium of earthly prosperity.
Again, these passages will be fulfilled at His coming, no need to force a postmil interpretation into the text.
And where exactly does it state explicitly in these passages that these things occur at his coming? I think you and the other amils are forcing the text here.
Look at I Corinthians 15:23-26:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Recall Hebrews 10:12-13, he is WAITING in HEAVEN, sitting at the right hand of the Father UNTIL his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ SITS, He WAITS, and He REIGNS until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.
I'm gonna post some points I made here once before some years ago and I'm curious as to what you guys thoughts are on it, so please by all means pick it apart and help a brotha out, no offense will be taken
Its kinda long but obviously Reform folk like to read so here ya go part 1
There is NO evidence for referring the OT passages to the millennium of the New, there is an overwhelming army of evidence for indentifying it with the Perfect eternal state. Isaiah 65:17 sets the stage and time for the entire prophecy: "Behold I create a new heavens and a new earth." This prophecy, recapitulated in verse 22 of the next chapter, is chronologically applied by Peter, in 2 Peter 3, and John, Revelation 21, to a time FOLLOWING the coming of Christ. They interpret Isaiah as refering to the eternal state. In both these NT passages, the Isaiah prophecy is clearly linked with a time subsequent to the millennium. Peter interprets Isaiah's "promise" as one which will be PRECEEDED by the destruction of the wicked and the melting away of the present heavens and earth. Revelation 21 locates the fulfillment of the prophecy at exactly the same time, John perfectly places it AFTER the thousand years, the resurrection and the white throne judgement. Other passages of a parallel nature also must refer to the new earth, not the millennial earth.
The contents of Isaiah's POETIC prophecy are no more literal than the description of the eternal state in Rev. 21 and 22. Who can interpret all the details of those two chapters literally? In both, Isaiah and Rev., language is used,in terms of what was considered most pleasant and astonishing in that day, to get across what words with their present limitations are incapable of correctly expressing. How else can perfection be described in words which have imperfect objects and concepts as recipients? It is difficult to understand why this passage should be misinterpreted when it clearly is indentified with the eternal state by the New Testament. The millennial references is totally without evidence, but its identification with the eternal state is affirmed by an abundance of biblical evidence.
This one passage has been singled out to demonstrate the way in which OT passages which actually refer to restoration from captivity, the New Testament age, and the eternal state are erroniously applied to the assumed golden-age.
Amillennialist or Realized Millennialist are in agreement with the Postmillenialist that we expect the millennium to be an age of imperefection. In oposiition to them, we do not view it as the fulfillment of the golden-age prophecies. We believe the prophesies to be truly GOLDEN perfect not GOLD PLATED! This is not to say that no OT prophecies refer to the present age, quite the contrary. But in accord with both Old and New Testament teaching, they find fulfillment of the "golden-age" prophecies in the eternal state, only then can it be said that all that glitters is Gold.
It is also interesting that postmil have to resort to OT prophesies that speak nothing of a golden age but refer unanimously to the golden age of new heaven and new earth which is Heaven.
The New Testament knows absolutlely nothing of IMPERFECT golden-age preaching. While there is a consistent appeal to look for the PERFECT golden-age of heaven, nothing can be found about an imperfect interim. Everywhere the eternal state is held out as the future hope of the church militant. The millennium is never preached as such. The only satisfactory explanation is that the millennium is a present reality not a future hope.
Old Testament passages frequently cited to substantiate the reality of an unrealized millennium(either in its Pre- or Post- form) do not hold any weight.
Isaiah 65:17-25 in one clear example. We both would agree that the passage speaks of a golden-age. The Postmil(as well as the Premil)will argue that the passage mentions children dying at one hundred years old, and sinners accursed at the end of the same period time. Taking this TOO literally, they insist that it must refer to an imperfect golden-age. And since the one thousand years obviously pertain to a time in which sin and death remain, they feel it is perfectly natural to superimpose the one passage on another.
Careful examination, however,shows two faults with this presupposition.
First, there must be unquestionable evidence for indentifying the Isaiah prophecy with Revelation 20. This evidence is totally lacking. The two are brought together in an unatural union. Who can prove, scripturally, that when Isaiah wrote "the wolf and the lamb shall feed together" he was speaking of the SAME period that John calls the "thousand years"? There are indications in the passage itself that it is not to be treated literally like "dust" becoming the serpent's food can hardly be literal.
Ezekiel's new temple is not a physical building that will in the future be built on a mound of dirt in the earthly city of Jerusalem, but the spiritual body of Jesus the Christ (cp. Ezek. 40-48 with John 2:18-22 and I Pet. 2:1-10).
Bavinck was not too far off when he asserted that to interpret the prophecy of the Old Testament literally means that one "breaks with Christianity and lapses back into Judaism."
To the praise of our Glorious King who now reigns forever, AMEN.
Sorry for all the grammatical errors, I was too lazy to edit
also....
I believe that there is NO biblical warrant to put these events before His coming, if the golden age was such an important event why is the NT not decisive on an era pre-dating Christ return?
Christ victorious return is the NT's hope for the Church militant not an intermediate era. I think the postmil gives a false hope and does not prepare the church for spiritual war, it will be like an ambush.
But to add more to this discussion, I would also agree that to promote the expansion of the kingdom through the conquering of the gospel(the fullfilment of the great commission) in NO WAY implies some earthly golden age that at best is actually gold plated.
Yes, it is true that God has promised a time of universal worship, peace, and prosperity, but that will occur only, as the consistent witness of the NT declares, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. Postmillennialism repeatedly emphasizes that the struggle between Christ and satan is a historical struggle that ends in historical victory. TRUE. But this it will end in TOTAL and PERFECT victory at the END of history (greek: to telos which means "completion", "perfect":1 Cor. 15:24; 1 Peter 4:7).
In other words, God's elect and God's created cosmos enter into COMPLETE(to telos) and Perfect(to telos) deliverance from sin and its consequences (see Rom. 8:18-23). The present earth and heavens will replaced with a "new heaven and a new earth, the HOME of righteousness"(2 Peter 3:13).
God's creational purpose(creative covenant) will be fulfilled in the NEW creation.
Postmil assert that Christ will be with His people to oversee the task of successfully completing its commission and that this is the postmil hope, and also claim that ONLY the postmil view can account for this, is not true at all. The realized mil certainly believe that this age will not end until Christ's purposes are fulfilled.
The postmil view has failed to establish the making disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching them requires that fulfillment be in Postmil terms.
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
I think you may have mistyped. Postmillenialists believe Christ returns after the millenial period. They do not believe that Christ comes and then the millenium begins. That is premillenialism.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastark For This Useful Post:
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
I think you may have mistyped. Postmillenialists believe Christ returns after the millenial period. They do not believe that Christ comes and then the millenium begins. That is premillenialism.
Yes, you are right. Thanks for the correction.
Theognome
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Theognome For This Useful Post:
__________________
Steve Butts - Former SBC-er
Three Forms of Unity - Bradenton CRCNA - Bradenton, Florida (A conservative member in a conservative congregation)
"Turning away to false Theology is equal to turning away to false gods" — Francis Schaeffer (Death in the City)
There are numerous problems with your thesis and the passages that you quote, but unfortunately I do not have the time to address all of them at this very moment.
BTW - Gentry/DeMar/Mathison deal extensively with your arguments; have you not read any of their works?
Also, Patrick Fairbairn's The Interpretation of Prophecy deals with many of the things you said, and he, along with others, provide convincing arguments that Revelation 21 is NOT chronological to chapter 20, in the same manner that Revelation 12 is not chronological to chapter 11.
There are numerous problems with your thesis and the passages that you quote, but unfortunately I do not have the time to address all of them at this very moment.
BTW - Gentry/DeMar/Mathison deal extensively with your arguments; have you not read any of their works?
Also, Patrick Fairbairn's The Interpretation of Prophecy deals with many of the things you said, and he, along with others, provide convincing arguments that Revelation 21 is NOT chronological to chapter 20, in the same manner that Revelation 12 is not chronological to chapter 11.
Yes I have actually, when I almost became a postmil...but they do exactly as what I presented above so my point still stands...
Its all a matter of correct hermeneutic and staying consistent with it..
The silver bullet that kills the "Golden Age" theory is found in the very verses that teach the Millennium:
(20:3)And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season .. (v.7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the eath, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
If, "after the thousand years" (the Millennium) Satan will be released from his prison to persecute the saints on earth, then it does not speak much for a "Golden Age prior to Christ's return" does it?
Blessings,
Rob
__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.
Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
Never be afraid to do something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, but professionals built the Titanic.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CalvinandHodges For This Useful Post:
If, "after the thousand years" (the Millennium) Satan will be released from his prison to persecute the saints on earth, then it does not speak much for a "Golden Age prior to Christ's return" does it?
That just means that a brief apostasy will follow the lengthy golden age.
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
Excuse me? Ummm...that is quite untrue. According to Ammillenialism history, especially church history, is marching forward to the final consumation when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, and to openly acknowledge and aquit all those who believe on Him. We are awaiting the day when the kingdom of God will be fully realized, when there is no more mixture of wheat and chaff in the Church of Christ, but will be a pure and spotless bride. That, my friend, is where history is going. Just because we ammillenialists think of success differently than do the posties, doesn't mean we think history is going nowhere. Get the doctrines of those you disagree with straight.
Do you not believe that good and evil will grow together equally and that the good will not be able to overcome the evil? That there will then be a falling away before the good overcomes the evil and that the triumph of evil will only be stopped by Christ's return?
That is in history Christ will not triumph by His Word, by His Spirit, by His Church and by His Providence. He will only triumph by His final, visible Second Advent, and even then there will be many more unsaved than saved?
Can you have a real apostasy at the end of the millennium, without a Golden/Silver Age? There has to be something to fall away from?
Re Isaiah 65, the powers of the new heavens and the new earth are already here. The beginning of the New Creation was in principle Christ's resurrection and the new birth is its beginning in us, which will eventually lead to a perfected and glorified soul, a glorified body and a creation that is incorruptible and undefiled and separated from sin. We celebrate the beginning of the new heavens and new earth every Lord's Day.
Obviously postmils believe certain aspects of the new heavens and new earth are delayed until Christ's Second Advent.
The Following User Says Thank You to Richard Tallach For This Useful Post:
Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace
Linear Mode
