OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I am no Greek expert, but I have heard from several sermons that the words used by Peter point towards a reforming of Earth rather than the annihilation of Earth. If this is so, then maybe some of the actually experts can give the specifics.

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Devin Brian
1689er
Attending Trinity Baptist Church in Shreveport, LA.
Vivian, Louisiana, USA

"The fall of man is written in too legible characters not to be understood: Those that deny it, by their denying, prove it." - George Whitefield

Just got back from a lecture by the infamous N.T. Wright here in Nashville touting his new book on heaven. Can't say that he said anything heretical. He went with the reforming view.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

I think that Jacob (Ivanhoe) holds to the reforming view. I am sympathetic to that view as well.

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Bryan Maes (on Facebook)
Trinity Reformed Church (CREC mission)
Edgewood, NM

I think that is Peter Leithart's position.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

FWIW I believe the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 refers to the NT age, but I am not convinced that the 2 Peter passage does.

If new means restored instead of brand spanking new in regards to a new heaven and a new earth, what about the new covenant? Is the same word used (sorry if off topic)...

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Outside of NPP N.T. Wright is a pretty Orthodox guy. His radical defense against the Jesus Seminar and the people of their ilk is commendable and should be supported.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church

Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

I agree with Daniel. The theme of a new heaven and new earth is repeated throughout Scripture. God created the heavens and earth and sin entered into it. God recreated the heavens and earth after the flood. When Jesus as the suffering servant came, He fulfilled the prophecies of Isaiah by recreating the heavens and the earth. Peter is describing the final judgment when Christ will return and complete his work of creation. The creation of heaven and earth has already begun. The apostle Paul says, that anyone in Christ is a new creation. This creation will be completed and fully realized when Christ returns at His final Peurosia (coming). William Dumbrell has written an excellent work, entitled, "The End of the Beginning." He shows how Revelation 21 & 22 is a completion of many themes that began in the Old Testament such as, The New Jerusalem, The New Temple, The New Covenant, and The New Creation.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

You may wish to read Thomas Adams' exposition of this passage, particularly on v. 13.

Links and Downloads Manager - The Epistles - An Exposition Upon the Second Epistle General of St. Peter -- Thomas Adams - The PuritanBoard

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"On land, at sea, at home, abroad, / I smoke my pipe and worship God." -- J.S. Bach

The word new means "renewed" in both cases; just like "a new commandment I give unto you that you love one another", which was not absolutely new, but a renewal of an old commandment.

kalawine,

Briefly, I take the "new heavens and new earth" to be centered on the restoration of the heavens and the earth. There is continuity and transformation (better word, I think, than discontinuity) that takes place. Peter says the old world "perished", but we know that it survived the flood. So with the language of the current heavens and earth (the ones existent after the flood) being 'dissolved', etc., I don't take the language 'literally', but believe it will survive, albeit restored - like in "This Old House" when they make the home "new'.

When you became a 'new creation', were you obliterated, destroyed, or were you redeemed? God redeems. He saves that which exists rather than relegate it to the scrap heap per se.

It is in this passage, because it gives a point of contrast with the false teachers - "where is the promise of his coming? All things continue as they always have..."

Good answer! This makes sense to me. Even as I have spent the last few days studying this subject I believe that this is what the Lord would have us believe.

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO
RPCNA

Thanks! This is pretty convincing info!

I am sorry, but where is your reference to Paul?

Hi:

John Owen does a very convincing job of proving the Pauline authorship in Volume 1 of his Commentary on Hebrews. A few examples:

1) Paul was a Pharisee before he was converted. Consequently, being intimately knowledgeable about the Mosaic ceremonial law, he would be an apt author of Hebrews. This is probably a record of how he disputed with the Jews when he went to their synagogues, Acts 9:22.

2) There are many references in Hebrews that point to Pauline authorship. One example:

Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you. Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. Grace be with you all. Amen Heb 13:23-25 last verses of the epistle.

Note: The ministry of Timothy was intimately associated with Paul. The Apostle wrote at least two letters to him.

Note: Paul is often sending Timothy on errands, Phil 2:19,20.

Note: Paul notes that he is in Italy - where he was taken to be judged and executed by Caesar.

Note: This is the Pauline ending which he says marks every letter he writes:

The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 2 Thess 3:17,18

Owen has many more excellent points to make.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

Ok, I understand. I did not realize that Owen made a strong case for Pauline authorship of Hebrews. I am not convinced that Paul wrote Hebrews, but I will certainly check Owen on this. Thanks.

Paul said the creation will be liberated with us at the resurrection. The corruption and decay that was laid upon it in the Fall will be removed. So, it won't be annihilated but restored to unfallen splendor, the same time we are glorified. 1 Cor 15 also picks up on this too.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I have heard Richard Bacon and Gary DeMar refer to the "elements" as referring particularly to the Old Covenant Temple worship elements. Not sure where they get this from, but I thought it was interesting.

In the past 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that the "new heavens and new earth" are referring to the NT age. Even as a dispensationalist, I struggled with this.

Simply too many temporal references in Rev 21 and Isaiah