The Materiality of the Eschaton

Ivanhoe · #1 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 04:39 PM

Craig Blaising, in The Millennium: Three Views, contrasted two types of eschatology: Spiritual vision eschatology and New Creation eschatology. Importantly, both of the other contributors, post and amill, agreed with him.

The Spiritual Vision model holds, following Augustine, that the hope of the Christian is not eartly, but heavenly and the purified soul apprehending the vision of God.

The New Creation model holds to a restored earth (see the fantastic work by amillennialist Anthony Hoekema).

Irenaeus describes the eschaton this way,

Quote:

The Days will come when vines shall grown, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each twig, ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metres of wine (e.g., grape juice). And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.

Against Heresies, 5.33

Puritan Sailor · #2 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 06:49 PM

Some have argued the Irenaeus actually switched his view in the middle of writing Against Heresies. He begins with what we might call Amil today, but then overreacted in response to gnosticism later in his book and advocated chilism.

armourbearer · #3 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 06:49 PM

It's possible the early fathers were simply employing the figurative language of Scripture, and not speaking literally of these things.

Ivanhoe · #4 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

It's possible the early fathers were simply employing the figurative language of Scripture, and not speaking literally of these things.

Possible, yes, but not definitive for in AH 5.3-4, Irenaeus admits the seeming incredulity of his position, which he wouldn't have to do if it were only "spiritual."

Mrs Severson:

That sounds like something I would do!

armourbearer · #5 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

It's possible the early fathers were simply employing the figurative language of Scripture, and not speaking literally of these things.

Possible, yes, but not definitive for in AH 5.3-4, Irenaeus admits the seeming incredulity of his position, which he wouldn't have to do if it were only "spiritual."

The subject is probably too complex for this kind of format, but Irenaeus is speaking of the resurrection.

Ivanhoe · #6 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

It's possible the early fathers were simply employing the figurative language of Scripture, and not speaking literally of these things.

Possible, yes, but not definitive for in AH 5.3-4, Irenaeus admits the seeming incredulity of his position, which he wouldn't have to do if it were only "spiritual."

The subject is probably too complex for this kind of format, but Irenaeus is speaking of the resurrection.

Possibly, but back to the original quote: If Irenaeus is arguing for the New Creation in spiritual terms, then he is not being very smart about it, debate-wise: for he is arguing against the gnostics--who dislike creation--and then uses the most literal form of describing heaven, without appearing to qualify the thing in question.

See amillennailist Hoekema on this question:

Quote:

On the new earth we hope to spend eternity, enjoying its beauties, exploring its resources, and using its treasures to the glory of God (see the thing on grapes above).

The Bible and the Future, p. 274.

armourbearer · #7 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 07:37 PM

Jacob, I agree that we will be on the new earth; but there are numerous problems associated with the terms we use, which create complexity in the subject. For example, I don't use the word "spiritual" as a synonym for "non-material." Again, there is a milieu in which the Bible is written, and its language must be understood accordingly.

Puritan Sailor · #8 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

For example, I don't use the word "spiritual" as a synonym for "non-material."

Excellent point. I'll have to remember that so I don't talk passed my premil brothers (i.e. Jacob!)

Ivanhoe · #9 (**permalink**) 09-30-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritan Sailor

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

For example, I don't use the word "spiritual" as a synonym for "non-material."

Excellent point. I'll have to remember that so I don't talk passed my premil brothers (i.e. Jacob!)

I had a list of amils on my files that defined spiritual precisely as non-material, but I can't find it at the moment. Patrick, I am going to send you an email in a second on your other (very interesting) thread.