how did your eschatological view add to your joy?

a mere housewife · #1 (**permalink**) 06-25-2008, 09:17 PM

The thread about the eschatology of the soul made me remember how Ruben and I simultaneously changed our millennial views, and I was wondering how others may have changed their views, and what kind of impact that had on their hope and joy. I know people on the board have different views, and don't at all want to start a thread that is simply an argument: but I would be very interested to know more about how people have been affected by what they believe in this area.

I'll start, but I think I was peculiarly dominated by errors; so my experience is rather ridiculously exaggerated. I think I had a very vivid imagination :-), and I was taught premillennialism to the exclusion of realizing that there were other views. I had always avoided reading or studying Revelation because I had been told the terrible things that were coming -- that this was the culmination of history -- evil would sweep over creation and pull it down in total destruction; we in our lifetimes would probably experience the terrible persecution of the horrific end, etc. I had very vivid recurring nightmares all through childhood and into adulthood, till after we were married -- my consciousness of the future was very much a black hole sucking at everything. After Ruben told me about the resurrection of the body, I hesitantly looked at the first few verses of Revelation and realized that a blessing was promised to those who read it, and decided to ask for the blessing. It took me a couple of weeks, but I was simply dumbfounded -- still not realizing that there were other eschatological positions -- at how what I was reading could possibly have any relation to what I had been taught. What I was reading was wonderful: Christ was victorious over all the hideous forms of evil. It wasn't about the beast at all, but about Him. And His people were not dragged under and defeated but were victorious, too. I thought I must be misunderstanding the book: I was stunned that anyone could teach such a nightmare as I thought was universally taught from it. I loved the symbols: the rider on the white horse, the princess in the distress but who is delivered, the dragon who is defeated, the sword. I was reading Roman history at the same time and thought how the people then must have understood so much of what was said to be applicable to them. I thought that the series of sevens seemed more like a cycle that encompassed history than an end times chart. Ruben started reading, and being convinced by, a book on amillennialism around the same time: and when he started telling me about it, it made sense of everything I had been thinking. I was very excited that I wasn't mistaken: that other people saw this too; and it was a tremendous blessing, as I had asked, because my whole view of history, the glory of Christ and the plan of redemption, was changed and made hopeful. Another blessing was that I did not have a nightmare about the tribulation period again. (though I did have a dream while reading Revelation that I was being burned at the stake, but it was a good dream: I was beckoning the people telling me to recant and save myself to come in with me, and be victorious. I can easily remember the intense joy I had being burned away :-) --my whole view of history was changing. & I thought God was very good to me in such a detail as a nice dream after lifelong nightmares of persecution.)

Iconoclast · #2 (**permalink**) 06-25-2008, 10:47 PM

When I was first exposed to end times studies,it was more about charts and wild speculations about current events. [ pre-mill days] Looking back on it there was not as much an emphasis on the Lord Jesus Christ.
From studying Hebrews I wandered into what I thought was the amill position ,which was much better and easier to "see" in the scriptures.
The emphasis was much more on Jesus as Lord, and King.
Upon re-examination of this I failed to understand that many of the men I thought were Amill, were in fact Postmill.

What I have come to understand ,and what has been a joyful aspect of these studies is that I use the vision and teaching from Revelation,1, 4, 5,19,20, to form a composite picture of Jesus the Prophet, Priest , KIng enthroned and worthy of all worship,adoration, and praise.
I see Revelation 4-5 along with Dan.7 as the place where are prayers are able to ascend to by virtue of Jesus mediation. He has passed through the heavens, and now we can come boldly and confidently to the throne.
I am not sure any of us have any real idea of how to really offer worship, or service , or even praise correctly at all. I often ask the Spirit to make acceptable my prayer.
When I read the portions in the book of Revelation, I try to allow John's description to be my eyes. I do not want to be so totally shocked when I depart this body that do not know what I am seeing.
REV.1-
Isa 6- John ,and Isaiah were both undone. I am sure it will be beyond what we can visualize.
Seeing Revelation as being more of an explanation of Jesus work as High Priest, and King, is so much better than speculating on demonic activity,and the heathen raging against His Kingdom.

holyfool33 · #3 (**permalink**) 06-25-2008, 10:55 PM

I used to be a Post-Mil Preterist so my hope was in an ever expanding church would subdue the earth. I am now a Dispensational Pre-Mil My hope is now in the coming of Jesus Christ for his Church in The Pre-Trib Rapture and the eventual Millennial Kingdom and Eternal State. Also the doctrine of imminence is a greater spur to holiness and I don't feel like I have to put on ideological blinders to believe "the world is becoming better and better."

PuritanCovenanter · #4 (**permalink**) 06-25-2008, 11:36 PM

I became a Christian during the beginning era of teaching that the mark of the beast was here and now ready. In early 1982 I was introduced to Clarence Larkin premil teaching. It didn't last long for me though. I thought that the Church and Isreal was the same thing. So I bypassed much of dispensationalism. But I didn't know anything about the other positions till I was in Toulon, France. A young girl from my Congregation back in Virginia was doing overseas mission work with a missionary named Bob Scott. She told me her family left the Church because it wasn't Premil. I was shocked because I read Revelation in a sequential chain of events. When I got back to Virginia I forgot all about it. Understanding the book of Revelation was to hard and all I was concerned about was that we had the victory.

When I returned to Indiana after 4 years in the Navy I decided to get my feet wet in Eschatology. So I bought the four millenial views book by Clouse. I was easily convinced by Anthony Hoekema's position. And I must admit I was a bit biased because my father in the Faith Joe Gwynn was amil. But it rang more true for me as the years have gone on. It says Jesus is King and has dominion now. Satan is and has been bound. And that was the main clincher for me since so many passages say or suggest this. It gave me great faith in my evangelism. And It rang true. Jesus is King. He has dominion now and forevermore. Satan is just a puppet on a leash.

a mere housewife · #5 (**permalink**) 06-25-2008, 11:43 PM

Amen.

Again, my thanks buttons keep going out; but I appreciate the answers and am enjoying them.

DMcFadden · #6 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 03:05 AM

Heidi,

I'm in a bit of flux on several issues concurrently. One of them is eschatology. During my teen years, I began reading dispensational theology pretty heavily (all 2,700 pages of Lewis S. Chafer's Sys Theo during 6 weeks when 16). Hal Lindsey was my main man when his book came out during my senior year in high school ('70-'71). Westmont converted me to historical premillennialism under Bob Gundry's powerful argumentation. Fuller only kept me moving in that direction under George Ladd.

My dispi days brought the sense of joy and satisfaction that "we were in the know" on the secrets of the universe that the liberals didn't even have a clue about. Historic premillennialism increased my satisfaction that the Bible was being treated with greater integrity and exegetical sophistication.

Currently, I am listening to Kim Riddelbarger's series on amillennialism and preparing to read Venema's The Promise of the Future. Kim's arguments seem to set the redemptive drama of the Bible in a more coherent framework than either of my two prior eschatological shema. It is a bit threatening to think of shifting major views at a few weeks short of my 55 birthday. Still, even at this age the excitement of discovery in the Word of God is an amazingly joy-filled experience.

Kim G · #7 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 08:59 AM

My husband and I began studying millenial views a couple weeks ago. We were both raised pre-trib pre-mil, and we pretty much shed our pre-trib rapture view a few weeks ago. I started asking questions from a friend of mine who's amil, and then yesterday I read this article from top to bottom. Although I am still studying, my heart leaped within me when I read Luke 17:21—"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." and Romans 14:17—"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

a mere housewife · #8 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 09:37 AM

Kim, that's splendid. I will try to read the article today.

Dennis, I can imagine how daunting it truly is, and you have my sincere admiration. I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts about all of this and whatever you come (or come back) to. Our church holds an 'open position' on eschatology which I find really refreshing in some ways, but have come to wonder if it might be unhelpful in others. I can understand why churches opt to confess a position rather than allow for openness as it seems liable to an under-emphasis on the triumph of Christ in history and our great hope --which affects the understanding of the rest of redemptive history. Also I wonder if, because it can encourage some confusion and a willingness to settle for not having a position --it really isn't all that important etc-- it can deprive people of joy.

Wannabee · #9 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 09:49 AM

Though I've been taught much of the dispensational eschatological sensationalism like others have, I never saw it as a horror or terror. I saw it as a promise of God's glory and justice being displayed for all to see. My understanding is much more tempered now, but I'm still solidly premil (no position on the trib). Regardless of how it works out, Jesus will return in glory, splendor and triumph. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. You can do it now to the praise of His glory; or you can do it as you are judged and condemned for eternity. Either way, God will be glorified. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

a mere housewife · #10 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 09:56 AM

Joe, I've appreciated the responses about how other people have understood premillennialism and how it gives them joy.

Quote:

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Wannabee · #11 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 10:16 AM

Heidi,

Thanks for your comment. Some see premil (even more so pretrib) as pessimistic. Actually, it's quite optimistic from their perspective. Man's depravity is revealed in history, even through the most splendid age ever, the Millennial reign. God will judge and be glorified. It's all about God's glory.

This is where we all often lose focus. We can tend to think it's about us; it's about the redemption of man. But it's about God. It's about the exaltation of Jesus Christ. When our focus is on the glory of our Savior then we can all rest in, have joy in and look forward to the return of Christ. With this knowledge, as long as we agree that He is returning, we look forward to the same event. We just have differing understandings of how that will come about. Heh, I even think He'll come a real horse (of some sort). But regardless of what I think, I KNOW He will come. Whether we're raptured before a tribulationary period or in the midst of the millennium right now, our hope necessarily rests in the verity of Christ's promise to return. What blood bought believer could not take joy in that wondrous truth?

Poimen · #12 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 10:38 AM

I was raised amillenial without knowing it and I am still amillenial (now knowing a little more about it).

So when I was younger I don't think it made much of a difference in my life. My eschatology was simple: Jesus returns and everything is all right. Now my joy is increased for basically the same reason, but added to it is a deeper knowledge of my own sin and the depravity in the world so my hope is that I know despite the corruption of this world Jesus reigns now and will reign in fullness when he comes again.

bond-servant · #13 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim G

My husband and I began studying millenial views a couple weeks ago. We were both raised pre-trib pre-mil, and we pretty much shed our pre-trib rapture view a few weeks ago. I started asking questions from a friend of mine who's amil, and then yesterday I read this article from top to bottom. Although I am still studying, my heart leaped within me when I read Luke 17:21—"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." and Romans 14:17—"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

This is a great little article. Thank you

Pergamum · #14 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 12:07 PM

I was overwhelmed by optimism after reading Psalm 72 and then hearing my church sing the hymn "Jesus shall reign" the very next morning....and it clicked! Then that evening I happened upon the verse about Jesus putting all things under his feet. By providence I was bombarded by optimism over the course of a whole weekend and became a convert to a very optimistic eschatology ever since:

Isaac Watts, Jesus Shall Reign Where'r the Sun

Jesus shall reign wherever the sun
Does his successive journeys run;
His kingdom stretch from shore to shore,
Till suns shall rise and set no more.

2. To Jesus endless prayer be made,
And praises throng to crown His head;
His name like sweet perfume shall rise
With every morning sacrifice.

3. People and realms of every tongue
Dwell on His love with sweetest song;
And infant voices shall proclaim
Their young Hosannas to His name.

4. Blessings abound where'er He reigns;
The prisoner leaps to lose his chains;
The weary find eternal rest,
And all the sons of want are blessed.

5. Where He displays His healing power,
Death and the curse are known no more:
In Him the tribes of Adam boast
More blessings than their father lost.

6. Let every creature rise and bring
Its grateful honors to our King;
Angels descend with songs again,
And earth prolong the loud amen!

7. Great God, whose universal sway
The known and unknown worlds obey,
Now give the kingdom to Thy Son,
Extend His power, exalt His throne.

8. The scepter well becomes His hands;
All heaven submits to His commands;
His justice shall avenge the poor,
And pride and rage prevail no more.

9. With power He vindicates the just,
And treads the oppressor in the dust:
His worship and His fear shall last
Till the full course of time be past.

10. As rain on meadows newly mown,
So shall He send his influence down:
His grace on fainting souls distills,
Like heavenly dew on thirsty hills.

11. The heathen lands, that lie beneath
The shades of overspreading death,
Revive at His first dawning light;
And deserts blossom at the sight.

12. The saints shall flourish in His days,
Decked in the robes of joy and praise;
Peace, like a river, from His throne
Shall flow to nations yet unknown.

The first time I ever heard this it brought tears to my eyes.

DMcFadden · #15 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wannabee

Heidi,

Thanks for your comment. Some see premil (even more so pretrib) as pessimistic. Actually, it's quite optimistic from their perspective. Man's depravity is revealed in history, even through the most splendid age ever, the Millennial reign. God will judge and be glorified. It's all about God's glory.

This is where we all often lose focus. We can tend to think it's about us; it's about the redemption of man. But it's about God. It's about the exaltation of Jesus Christ. When our focus is on the glory of our Savior then we can all rest in, have joy in and look forward to the return of Christ. With this knowledge, as long as we agree that He is returning, we look forward to the same event. We just have differing understandings of how that will come about. Heh, I even think He'll come a real horse (of some sort). But regardless of what I think, I KNOW He will come. Whether we're raptured before a tribulationary period or in the midst of the millennium right now, our hope necessarily rests in the verity of Christ's promise to return. What blood bought believer could not take joy in that wondrous truth?

Sometimes in our haste to defend confessionalism strongly against all hermeneutical competitors, we lose track of the part dispensationalism has played in many of our spiritual journeys. I was heartened to hear both Palmer Robertson and Kim Riddlebarger speak movingly (on MP3s) of their own dispi days and the enduring respect they have for their dispensational colleagues and brethren despite the seismic changes in their own theological architecture since then.

1. Many of us were converted/renewed in faith through the ministry of dispensational teachers. The Lord used them to bring us to himself and to nurture us in the scriptures.

2. When most Presbyterians were going the way of the mainline, dispensationalists were among the first and strongest defenders of the inerrancy of the Word of God. They did more than just keep the fires burning until the recovery of the DoG in evangelical circles through the ministries of people like Sproul, Kennedy, Piper, Packer (early), and Mohler.

3. At the heart of the system, dispensationalism is profoundly doxological. Its focal point and apex is the glory of God, manifested in all creation.

4. The dispensational belief in a literal millennium, while evidently more difficult to sustain exegetically, put the eschatological focus on a real and genuine eschatological destination in resurrected bodies of the saints instead of the popular Protestant notions of ghosts (or worse, angels!) floating on cllouds and strumming ethereal harps for eternity. Dispensationalists have kept alive the idea of a renewed "heavens and earth."

-----------------------

Addendum: this is so speculative and flaky, I want to separate it from the other points.

Since it is easier to move from dispensationalism to covenant theology than vice versa, have you considered that one of the side "benefits" (trying to make lemonade out of lemons) of dispensationalism is that since it has such a large market share, it provides an entry point for people who will later "out grow" it and its limitations and move on to full confessionalism? For much of my ministry, I carried the internal inconsistency of historic premilennialism (my college and seminary taught hermeneutic) clashing in my mind with some remainders of dispensational differentiations between Israel and the church.

I have noted with interest that many in MacArthur's circle have been moving to an amil eschatology in recent years. Riddlebarger posits this as one of the reasons for MacArthur's strong message at last year's Shepherd's Conference that all Calvinists ought to be premillennialists. Riddlebarger suspects that MacArthur is concerned that his move to the DoG may encourage others to keep on moving all the way over to covenant theology in full, including eschatologically. Regardless of the reasons for the shift, it has been taking place and supports my contention that consideration of the DoG will often provide the entre for people to come into a fully Reformed position in all areas.

a mere housewife · #16 (**permalink**) 06-26-2008, 02:15 PM

Pergy, I love that hymn. It was a great thing to read again. It is very moving when I consider how your eschatology, as you live it out, is changing the world.