This is an interesting question that I have been pondering upon lately, especially with the new crisis in Gaza with that Hamas party and the historical mess that begun with the foundation of the new state of Israel in 1948.

Many dispensationalist believe that the return of the Jews in Israel was a fulfillment of biblical prophecies and is an indication that we are drawing closer to the rapture, the return of Christ, the millenium, etc. Being an amillenalist, I don't believe that stuff.

However, there are a few passages in the Old Testament that speak of God giving the land of Canaan to Isreal for ever, or as an everlasting possession, thus implying that they have a divine right to dwell in Palestine. See Gen. 17:8. 48:4. Or take for instance Ex. 32:13:

"13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever."

But this kind of language is also used for the ceremonial law, which we know to have been abolished. Interestingly, John Gill points out:

"These words, eternal, everlasting and for ever, are sometimes used in an improper sense, as of things which are of a long duration, but limited, and have both a beginning and an end; as the everlasting possession of the land of Canaan, granted in the everlasting covenant of circumcision, and yet both are now at end.... " A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, p. 65.

My personal conclusion is that this promise of God to give the land of Canaan to Israel as an everlasting possession was conditional upon their obedience to his laws and precepts, which they boke many times, and thus resulted in diasporas (starting with the Exile in Babylon). Probably the greatest crime committed by Israel was to reject Christ (their Messiah), which later resulted in their desctruction in 70 A.D. bringing an end to temple worship and the ceremonial law. As Paul teaches in Romans "not all Israel is part of Israel", and while some of the Jews were elect, many of them were reprobates, although they were part of the Old Testament visible church and in this respect were called "God's people." However, I do believe that there will be a return to the gospel among the Jews as is interpreted by some in Rom 11:23:

"And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[ak] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[al]

Indeed, we are already seeing this return with the Messianic Jewish movement. Although I find that the movement has the weakness of promoting too many ceremonies from the Old Testament again, I believe there are many Jews who are embracing the gospel along with it. But this is totally different from the carnal Israel and the Zionist movement which are really trying to go back to the Old Testament dispensation and take possession of a physical patch of land, indeed deporting the local Philistines in to the West Bank, and Gaza, promoting racism and trying to finish the war that Joshua started, thinking that they still have it as a command from God.

To make a long story short, I do not believe that Israelis have any divine right to possess and control the holy land, their right having been forfeited after their rejection of the gospel. Besides, for those who have indeed embraced the gospel, their hope is in the spiritual Canaan that they will possess and the New Jerusalem where they will live, not the physical one located in the Middle East.

Now, some Amillenialists like me have been labelled anti-Semites by Dispensationalists (see John MacArthur) for holding to this view. I think this is rediculous.

__________________
Jean-David Jutras
URCNA
Alberta

If anyone has a right to Palestine it would be the new Israel, the Church. As it is our hope is eternal not temporal.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

So If our true home is above, why so much turmoil over a tract of land about the size of New Jersey?

Ishmael & Isaac will always be in conflict. So whoever Ishmael perceives as Isaac will be target for being pushed out of the land promised. I thought that one of the mysteries of the Gospel was the Jew and Goy (true children of Abraham by faith) being united as one in Christ.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Christ's kingdom is not limited to some "special" place in Palestine. He is the King of the universe. Period.

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Daniel Franzen
Church Creek Presbyterian (PCA)
Charleston, SC

We ought to be looking for that heavenly country (I think that is what Abraham himself did)...

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

Divine Right? No.

Right to protect where they are now? Yes.

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Divine right? I don't know.

Historical right? Yes!

Legal right? Yes!

It's their country. It was given back to them in the Balfour declaration.

The so-called Palestinians have no right to the land. The Israelis have been giving up land for peace for too long.

__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

Even if I was a dispy, which I am not, and even if I thought the geographic promise still held, and even if I was a double Covenant person who thinks Jews can get into heaven just by being good Jews.....

God kicked them out before for their idolatry so why should he give them the land now? I've been there and they are as worldly and sinful as Americans; their TV is a worse gutter than ours. You have a minority of torah abiding orthodox but the majority don't even believe in God let alone try to live for him. Why should it be any different than it was when Assyria or Babylon wiped them out?

Kim Riddlebarger-devout amil- thinks the physical nation will probably be part of the means whereby Romans 11 is fulfilled. So I do think God ordained this physical nation to exist now and it'll be part of how they get saved en masse, maybe when the nukes start falling.

I think your post was excellent by the way. Very well articulated.

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

For about 12-15 years, I was all over the map on this issue (Eschatology in general). I started Premil-Dispy and went to all of these [Amil/PostMil/Partial Pret]. I have come home to roost with the pre-mils. Not hard and fast on any view. I see these NT scriptures as a starting point.

Acts 1:6-8
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. NKJV

Notice, they had been learning about the "Kingdom of God for 40 days". They are now asking about the "Kingdom of Israel". This was a perfect time to say that the Kingdom of Israel is past tense. But it did not happen.

Acts 15:12-20

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16'After! this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'

18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
NKJV

This seems to indicate someday down the road, an earthly Israelite Kingdom will be in place.

__________________
Joseph R. Guth Jr.
Rockford First

Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546), Luther's Response to the Inquisition at the Diet of Worms

Although the nations are God's earthly people, Biblical Israel was commissioned by God to be his special, spiritual people. They were saved not works but by a belief in the saving work of the Son of God who was to come. They heard the Word of God directly through his prophets, who directed them precisely when and how to take the Biblical lands to clear the way for him, according to the specific instructions from God.

In the years before Jesus the Messiah came, the Biblical Jews did as God commanded; they were fruitful and multiplied and evangelized the ancient world, clearing a way in the wilderness of the Nations. In time, the overwhelming number of Jews throughout the world were newcomers, formerly of the nations. When Jesus came as the promised Messiah, his work of redemption was fulfilled for all time.

__________________
Less than the least of all saints,
Peter
At home: All Saints, REC.. At seminary: New Hope, PCA.
ETS, Due West, SC, CSA
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord
and whose hope the Lord is:
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters.
Jer. 17:8

Thank you for this post. We have been debating this very issue in our church over the fellowship meal the past two Lord's days. I have been arguing, in the minority, for the exact position you have articulated here. You've said in a few paragraphs what I apparently have not been able to communicate with many words over the last two week. Indeed, thank you!

__________________
James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

As you can see indeed, the large majority (90%) of the PB members are on the same general concensus. This is a bit similar to the "divine right of kings" that the European monarchy believed and used as a excuse for tyranny for many years. The puritans were opposed to this view, and some even considered it to be heresy.

I guess the debate is over.

Sorry, but how is this so?

Spoken as a true son of your father Rushbo.

The "so-called" Palestinians have been there for a minimum of 500 years. But they have no right to the land. A blue eyed Russian who vaguely remembers a Russian Jewish grandma can vote two months after getting off a plane in Israeli elections. But a Muslim or Christian Palestinian who's lived there for a minimum of 500 years has no right to vote in Israeli elections.

Wow, that's fair. Spoken like a true Calvinist who believes in the lady with a scale in her hand and blindfold.

Hey, Grimir. What rights do the Palestinians have? Could you detail them?

Please don't run. Please don't engage in FOX NEWS type rhetoric. Please tell me what rights those Palestinians who have been born in Israel have.

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Read through biblical glasses, it's pretty self-explanatory.

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

I was asking what the DROKs had to do with whether modern day Israel has a right to Palestine.

I don't really see the obvious connection ...

I noticed you didn't vote because neither of my two options pleased you. You see, I want people to take a side and that is why I did not put "I don't know" as an option. I think the Scriptures are clear enough for us to take stance.

There are Christians in Israel, including in Gaza, and they are caught amist the hardship being rejected by both sides. My heart goes out to them.

As for the Balfour declaration, history has shown how wise of a decision it was.

If God has ordained rulership over a land, then the ruler has the divine right to do to the land and the people on the land whatever they choose. The people have no recourse, voice or rights of any kind. When the ruler speaks, it might as well be Ex Cathedra, for it is the pure will of God. The idea here is that 'since' Israel has a divine ordinance to occupy the land, she can do with it (and the people of it) whatever she wishes, be it conventional or nuclear.

Israel as an ethnic nation of people that crucified Christ and declared themselves loyal to the state above God (We have no king but Caesar!) only have a right to Palestine in as much as the world allows- the Harlot of Babylon doing her tricks to get the world to succumb to her wishes. Though in the short run this is a successful strategy, in the long run her lovers (Canada, US and others) will tire of this nonsense at some point. Woe to Jerusalem on that day.

Theognome

So if I understand your point...

Your parents get forced out of their home 60 years ago at gun point. They go stay with some family members "until this all blows over". Three years later the entire town gets bulldozed & some Mexicans (say) move in and build a "new" town on the site of their (former) home.

Your parents then go to court and win (repeated) judgements against those who now live on their land. The mexicans say the courts are "anti-mexican" & besides the mexican people have suffered historical wrongs, so they deserve a break.

You and your brothers get really upset at this situation, so you start throwing rocks at the people living on your family farm when they drive by.

Etc., etc., etc.,

Your view is that the Mexicans may not have Gods sanction to live there, but they do have a "historical", and a "legal" right to live on "their land". After all they were promised it by the Norwegians! And your "so-called parents" have no right to the land.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Thanks for the explanation, Theognome.

Kevin, your analogy is correct, but you're dealing with True Believers, and logic, history, facts and principle won't work with them. AVers, Christian Zionists, Frameworkers, Federal Visionists, etc...they've all got their pet theories, and will hold on to them at almost all costs.

Who cares about the 4000 people maimed or killed in the latest killing spree in Gaza. As long as they aren't member of the Chosen Race they don't count anyway. They should in any event submit to Rush, Sean, Bush and the other useful i.....The others who were so wise and responsible..who decided that invading Iraq would help bring peace....

Hey, might as well go with the winners....

Neogillist;

Well, in that (trans) Jordan was also PART of this area of so called "Palestine", and was given to the Arab's they have/had a place to go, the Jews only asked for a small sliver of land when the land was divided by England...

Why would it necessarily be conditional?

I honestly, don't know if the promise is conditional or not..but why would it be?


Why do people assume Israel is responsible for all these wars?? And racism?

Arab-Israeli conflict - Basic facts

Myths & Facts - The Mandatory Period


Again, I do not know if God's promises to Abraham and his seed are conditional or not..but I do find it interesting that for generations the majority of the land was uncultivated and sandy, and nothing would grow on it..but when the Jew's began to return...all that changed..sounds like God's hand was in it--

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

My bad! I didn't see "divine" in the OP.

I voted "yes" for national security reasons.

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Michael Tremmel
attending Christ Reformed Baptist Church
Hales Corners, WI.

Isaiah 46:5-11

I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. Ps.16:8 ESV

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. 1 Cor.15:10a ESV

Praecepta docent, exempla movent (precepts teach, but examples move)

If its all the same to you, my friends, I think I'm just going to end this thread here.

I just don't see how this venue (the PB) helps sort over all the violence and vituperation.

What we generate here is more heat than light.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
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To see ourselves as others see us.
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