What do board members make of the growth of messianic congregations? Is this part of the turning of Israel to their Messiah?

What is the orthodox position on a re-established Israel? Is there one, given Israel's "recent" formation?

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Eoghan
member,Thurso Baptist Church
Scotland

specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of the Ark)
interests: holiness (practical theology)
member of Biblical Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north of Scotland)

I am not aware of a growth in messianic congregations (do you have a link to something?), but it could be a sign of turning Israel to her Messiah, but it depends on your understanding of Israel and eschatology.

If, like me, following Cornelius Van Der Waal, you see Romans 9-11 centered on the first century and the "even at the present time" remnant, etc., you just see as a good sign of PEOPLE turning to the Messiah with no special eschatological significance.

I remember hearing one guy who was a big dispie, after I explained this, at the end of the table, say, "I think what he believes is of the devil..." So I'll let others judge the orthodoxy of it.

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J.R.
Layman
New York, NY

Before I married my Reformed husband in 2000, I visited one of these congregations. I wasn't interested in joining--just curiosity.

What I liked was the family emphasis. At one point in the service the families huddled and had a prayer.

There was dancing before the altar with music in a minor key.

There was the excitement of a charismatic church, but no orderly worship.

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Carol
Plant City, Florida


That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:8,9

http://gettingoffthenicenesstreadmill.blogspot.com/

Interesting, we were reading through Scripture and discussing this recently. This passage was particularly striking in understanding this.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Statistics (what there are) suggest that much of the growth is from "gentile" converts to messianism rather than from actual Jewish converts to this form of Christianity.

Many "gentiles" are caught up in the messianic craze for a number of reasons, probably most notable that it just seems more "authentic". After all, Christianity does have Hebrews roots so therefore it makes sense to worship "just like Jesus did". What that often means in reality is filtering 1st century practices (as they are imagined) through 2000 years of rabbinic and other Jewish cultural practices. Many messianic sincerely believe that “gentile Christianity” (what the rest of us practice) is actually a perversion from the intention of Jesus and His apostles. It’s a restorationist movement with a Hebrew flare.

Most of these neo-Judaistic practices have more in common with Ashkenazi/Sephardic traditions than with authentic biblical worship styles. There is also some reason to believe that some of these groups hold to heretical views wrt the Trinity and the person and work of Jesus Christ (e.g., modalism, arianism, etc).

It’s not clear to me that this modern movement is part of some “end times” mass conversion of Jews to Christianity.

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Tom Albrecht
Elder, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"When I find the time, I'm going to write the social history of bourbon."

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Aaron Josh Wright
Deerbrook Baptist Church, Humble Tx
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary

What Tom said.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

I’ve told my Messianic friends (who are actually gentiles fascinated with “Jewish” things), if they wanted to emulate biblical Judaism, they’d become Presbyterians, which have “synagogues” ruled by elders in ascending courts, sing the Psalms, worship a Sovereign God according to his command, and have a full appreciation for the Law of God in all three uses. I’m concerned much of their fascination misses the gospel, cross and grace, often paying more attention to Jewish tradition than the Word, and worshiping in a less than biblically warranted manner, according to tradition and taste.

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_de...formationidaho


Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

Maybe they're eating more and exercising less? That tends to make bigger congregations.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

You are a bad man.

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Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

I'm new and can't thank yet, apparently, but Tom nailed it. I have some extended family involved in these "Hebraic" churches (there's some distinction betw that term and "Messianic" that they find helpful and I don't get) and, um, they're not Jewish.

Their attraction stems in part from concerns about libertinism in the evangelical church. Ditto Tom's comments about the search for authenticity, and re: the aberrent doctrines around the edges of their Christology. Another tendency: a fascination with what the medieval Jewish sages said about this or that verse, replacing any sense of obligation to be aware of the history of interpretation in the "Gentile" church. Conspiracy theory as church history, in essence.

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Aaron Root
RE
Crossroads PCA
Woodbridge VA

This is not new to West Texas.
This TV station is sort of the nerve center of it here:
Prime Time Christian Broadcasting Presents: God's Learning Channel

For years we have had the traveling celebs in Yarmulkes come through town with fascinating explanations of Hebrew habits and practices. It is actually quite interesting at first.
For a while it seems just wonderfully educational. Christians begin to emulate the ceremonies and the festivals and the customs.

I am speaking ONLY of my experience with people very close to me.
Surely somewhere there is a group of these people who are Christ focused but I have not met them.
As the fellowships grow, Jesus is mentioned less and less and in fact the name Jesus isn't used. It must always be Yeshua and his parables and teachings and life take a back seat to traditions and old covenant "lessons".
Other Rabbis are quoted much more than Christ.
It becomes ALL about the Torah.
Only the Apostle Paul gets less mention on the Sabbath which is always observed from sundown Friday to Saturday Friday. I would say it has been the hottest thing going for the last decade with the Christians who continually look for the next new thing.

I don't think I have met a Jewish person yet who has "converted" by these fellowships.
If God is using this movement to bring folks to Christ I am missing it... WHICH IS HIGHLY POSSIBLE.

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
You know what my main problem is? I start things but rarely finish anyth...

While we are on this topic, what do people think about this organisation?

Prayer For Israel

PFI

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Bern
Evangelical
Kent UK

I know a man, a presbyterian pastor, that serves "out of bounds" as the director of a large muli-national ministry of that ilk.

He has told me that he he serves to help evangelise those that are lost, but HE COULD NOT ATTEND one of the churches his group planted, because the practice was too far removed from the biblical norm.

Another thing to note, alot (though by no means all) of these groups are "Hyper-Zionist", and "Ultra-Dispensationalist".

Some would get along quite well with John Hagee IMO.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

The theology of some of these Messianic groups verge on the Heretical. Some of them have heretical views on not only the Trinity or the Eternal Sonship of Christ, but from their statements appear to support a form of Works Righteousness.
These errors stem a lot from their general tendency to reject the Church Councils of the first six centuries as a form of paganism. They are usually very warm to Rabbinic Judaism, mistaking it for a development of the Ancient Judaism of the 2nd Temple Era. Rabbinic Judaism is a New Creation from the ashes of 70AD, created by Rabbi Jonathan ben Zakkai, which if the Talmud is correct was probably one of the Sanhedrin who tried the Lord Jesus. The Mishnah which is THE source book of Rabbinic Judaism from which the Talmud later developed was only edited and written down 200 years after Jesus. There are useful things to be learned from the Rabbinic Writings as John Gill found out, but there is a whole lot of rubbish and fables, even pagan notions in these writings. Any unqualified and excessive veneration of these writings can be poisonous.

I'm reminded of the words of Alfred Edersheim, "He who has thirsted and quenched his thirst at the living fount of Christ's Teaching, can never again stoop to seek drink at the broken cisterns of Rabbinism." (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah)

Roughly 80% of those enroled with First Fruits of Zion are gentiles/christians.

This just shows the attraction of the exotic, and the attraction of "old things" characteristic of todays neo-gnostic age....

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Apparently the remnant is coming back to the LORD. One thing that I find disturbing with the Messianic Jews is that they continue to proclaim their Judaism. They refuse to call themselves Christians and often hurl accusations at Gentile Believers. They seem in many cases to want to rebuild the wall between Jews and Gentiles which Christ has broken down by His Death and Resurrection.

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Ed
PCA
Cleveland TN

As has been mentioned this form of Judaic religion is built upon ignorance of history. They mistakenly understand Judaism to be an accurate representation of the OT faith. They fail to see that Judaism as it was practiced, even in Christ's time, was deemed a false system. The Hebraic Christian Churches simply tack on too many of man's traditions that developed out of a corrupt form of Biblical interpretation.

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Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV

I don't know what's going on, but if it means there are Jews converting to faith in their Messiah, praise God!

Some do, but many do not.

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Ralph
Pastor
Valera Baptist Church
Valera, Texas