I was from a five generation Catholic family starting from my grandparent's grandparent, according to my knowledge, my experience, and most important, the Word of God, the office of Pope is the Antichrist, the man of sin, the beast the woman with her cup of fornication.

She and her children (the Arminians, the Antinomians, and other heresies) are Satan's device to trouble the church, I also believe that they will be utterly destroyed when millenium comes in the future. (before Christ comes)

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Yigang Xu
Husband of Yele, Father of Anna (07/17/08)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, Free Church of Scotland (Continuing)
Bethesda, Maryland

"Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness. They drop upon the pastures of the wilderness: and the little hills rejoice on every side." Psalm 65:10,11

IF I can be perfectly frank.... I think that Javier Solana is the beast if not the Anti-Christ, spoke about in the Bible.

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Jessica Auner
Wife, Mother,
Garden City, Ga
Ephesus Church
(a Reformed Baptist church)

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Why?

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

that's a whole other ... maybe tomorrow I can write a s/o thread about it... for now if you just wikki him... it's enough to give you the creeps

I waited to vote, I wanted to re-visit a few texts, creeds, etc. I voted yes.

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Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

Back when I was a futurist, I thought it was Solana as well. That was then.

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Keon,
Perhaps their denial of it is in their belief that Christ comes in the flesh at every mass via transubstantiation.
Jim

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Jim
An Elder, Harvest Reformed Church (RCUS),Minot, ND
http://www.harvestreformedchurch.org/
http://tbftgoggi.wordpress.com/

Upon a life I did not live; upon a death I did not die, Another's death, Another's life, I'd rest my soul eternally
Omnia dicta fortiora,si dicta Latina
Si vis pacem, para bellum

How many Reformed Christians would the Pope and his false church had to kill for some of you to believe that he is Anti-Christ? Because it sure seems like Rome killed a lot, and that whole "human torch" thing seems like it could have come from the Anti-Christ.

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

This is biblical and certainly has been vindicated since Trent.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
disabled - cancer
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

zzzzzz ...

Have any of you read Durham's commentary on Revelation? A friend told me he is very convincing and confessional.

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w

Link?

True, but the RC church denies one of gthe main "reasons" Christ came in the flesh, and that being so that His righteousness can be Imputed to the Elect...so if a church denies one of the main reasons for the incarnation, does it not in doing so in effect deny Christ coming in the flesh??

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Roy
PCA
Orlando, Florida

No link. You have to buy it.

I'll just answer my own question. Paul was obviously speaking of the Roman Emperor (he) and the Roman Empire (what). He would not need discretion with anyone/anything else. The theological trappings for a pope were already at work but could not come to power until the openly Pagan absolute power was removed. This "man of sin" would not be destroyed until Christ's return. There certainly isn't a man that has been around this long but the ideals of a papacy have been. They were restrained in Paul's day until the Emperor left Rome.

The span of being in power since the removal of the emperor and existing until the return of Christ creates a historicist framework. In that time period who else has come out of a false Christianity and claimed the authority of God? Who has had authority over the visible church? If not the papacy then you (non-historicists) have to pick someone who has existed in that span of time.

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[B]Manley Beasley[/B]
Southern Baptist Convention
Fayetteville, Arkansas

[B]Wir sein pettler. Hoc est verum (We are beggars. This is true.).--Luther's dying words[/B]

Excerpts from Commentary on Revelation by James Durham

enough for a good reading

Concerning Writing

Concerning a Calling to the Ministry, and Clearness therein.

This site also has great material from the Scottish Puritan and others

James Durham Thesis

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César Proença

there is no will nor running by which we can prepare the way for our salvation, it is wholly of the Divine Mercy Jean Calvin Institutes II . V. 17

Reformed Churches in The Netherlands (liberated) http://www.gkv.nl/main.asp?intTreeviewID=954

Igreja Reformada em Massamá Portugal http://www.igrejareformada.pt

I thought I had read some of it in the past, thanks.

The Papacy is an anti-christ. But, it is not the anti-christ....

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Joseph R. Guth Jr.
Rockford First

Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546), Luther's Response to the Inquisition at the Diet of Worms

Por que?

I think the whole thing is muddied by differing snapshots in Church History. The Papacy is anti Christ, however it has not yet matured into its full blown state of evil oppression. Foxes book of Martyrs shows many who have paid the ultimate price for their testimony, but I believe we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, of what Jesus will crush upon his return.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Exscuse my very newly 'reformed' ignorance. But if the confessions are not scripture, why do people get so upset at certain aspects of them being wrong? Is it possible that while in theory some 'reformed' people will say that the 'confessions' are not scripture, but in practice they treat them as if they were?

just a pondering...

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

To better understand what PB is all about read this awesome post by Rich: Does God Have Emotions?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

KMK:

That emotional God thread is much different:

It deals with the Godhead and not eschatological speculation.

The Confesssions MUST address the central doctrines that determine who is "IN" the faith, but eschatological positions are much less important and more "iffy."


Also, in defense of Dr. Bob Gonzales, I don't think he was promoting heresy but was fumbling at the edges of orthodoxy looking for some further clarifications (and falling over the edge). He is never anything but humble and gentle and I think that thread was cut short prematurely.

If we respect elders and teachers, they ought to be given a chance to defend themselves when it appears that they are teaching error (and yes, I do agree that his speculations appeared to be in error.....but I will never know for sure now will I?).

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

The Confessions are very respected as being a summary of what the scriptures teach put together by a very large body of very godly and very intelligent men. The were like theological geniuses. They and their collective judgement as men of God with ecclesiastical authority is not easily cast aside.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

Y'all have it wrong. David Hasselhoff is the antichrist.

David Hasselhoff is the AntiChrist


Theognome

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Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

The confession itself is not infallible but the doctrines summarized in the WCF are all Biblical and correct.

Backwoods Presbyterian;

Most certainly a form of anti-Christ when the pope and the RCC continues to believe he and the priests within the RCC are the only one's who can absolve people of their sin..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Sorry, I was specifically speaking of these words by Rich:

It could be argued that to the reformers and puritans historicist eschatology was not iffy or speculation. I know its popular to see eschatology that way in our day and time but I think that results from the popularization of futurism and preterism. Both of these views distance the church from actively opposing the man of sin. They have also opened the door for ecumenical compromises. Think about it, if the historical protestant eschatology is correct then it is not a side issue but a central and vital issue.

I was a dispy futurist for most of my life until I studied 2 Thess 2 and 1 Tim 4. I then took a class on Daniel/Revelation at Liberty Univ. and even though it was also dispensationalist/futurist it only convinced me more thoroughly that the reformers and puritans had it right. I certainly don't condemn people who have a different view but if our forefathers took it so seriously I think we shouldn't easily dismiss them on this issue (I'm not saying that's what you're doing but that is what I did for a long time).

Whether "iffy" or not, Confessions ought to summarize basic doctrine, those most rooted to determining those who are within or outside of the faith. Eschatology is secondary.

"Charges against the (Pauline) eschatology find various forms of expression. Foremost stands the (liberal) revulsion from the supernaturalism in the eschatology, for with Paul, as elsewhere in scripture, eschatology is supernaturalism in the nth degree...a so-called Christianity proving cold or hostile towards the interests of the life to come has ceased to be Christianity in the historic sense of the word.

"...the eschatological principle is so deeply embedded in the structure of the biblical religion as to precede and underlie everything else." -- Geerhardus Vos, "The Pauline Eschatology", pp. 62, 63, 66

The Vossed World: Vos: Eschatology precedes and underlies everything else

Keep in mind that most of "eschatology" are the basics of personal eschatology, i.e., that there will be an afterlife and a new heavens and a new earth and there will be a physical resurrection, etc. Out of the vast category "eschatology," this sub-topic of the Antichrist and finding the chronological scheme that is going to happen is minor. This quote by Vos isn't really applicable.

I can relate with what you have said. I am a former Roman Catholic myself, and most of my relatives are still Roman Catholics. Majority or most of my ancestors in the previous centuries were Roman Catholics as well.

My parents, sisters and I visited the home of my mother's sister (and her family) just a few hours ago. I found three Roman Catholic images in their home, and I was so saddened by the fact that this is the religion my cute little cousins (ages 5 and 3) will be raised to practice!

The teachings of the Popes are still what they were during the Protestant Reformation. They are leading souls to eternal damnation. Though I believe that the Pope is an anti-Christ, I am not yet sure whether it is right to call him as the anti-Christ. I still need to do more study on this. Thanks for sharing.

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Albert, The Republic of the Philippines
Pasig United Covenant Reformed Church (a Reformed church plant)
United Covenant Reformed Churches in the Philippines (UCRCP)
Three Forms of Unity and Westminster Confession of Faith

Psalm 27:1a (AV) The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
“Perseverance is the badge of true saints. The Christian life is not a beginning only in the ways of God, but also a continuance in the same as long as life lasts.” -

I have heard this argued before but I don't get it. What is wrong with a church sitting down and creating a 'full orbed' (I know this word has been banned, sorry) confession that includes every jot and tittle upon which they agree? Just because the Divines had agreement on 'secondary issues' does not mean that they believed those who disagreed were unbelievers. It just meant you couldn't hold an office in the church.

Indeed, a great deal of churches have 'unwritten' confessions that include secondary issues. (Try becoming a preterist Calvary Chapel pastor, for example.)

-----Added 1/17/2009 at 05:02:06 EST-----

After rereading this post I realized that it could potentially take this thread off topic. Sorry!

The primary meaning of "anti" is "in the place of". Surely one who acts in the place of Christ (as the pope, the "vicar of Christ", does by virtue of his office) is one of the "many antichrists" (1 Jn 2:18). In this sense one may agree with the unabridged confession. But the "man of sin" ...hmm. Probably not the pope, IMHO. I will agree with a previous poster who said he will probably be Islamic, taking the sense all the way back to Ishmael "in the place of" Isaac.

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Mike Arnaud
OPC
Oak Harbor, WA

Those who are officers in churches with a modified confession dropping the identification of the Pope as the Anti-Christ should not be accused of being unfaithful in their subscription. Their ordination vows only hold them accountable to the confession to which they subscribed. Honesty in subscription does not require them to believe or teach the Pope is the Anti-Christ. There is room for charity here.

Though I’m in the OPC, which holds the American modified WCF, I affirm the original without reservation. There is nothing in the American form of the confession requiring me to believe the Pope is NOT the Anti-Christ.

I have found European Reformed folk more sensitive to this issue than Americans. The Roman Church here has positioned themselves as another non-threatening denomination among many. About six years ago, my Scottish and Ulster Reformed friends helped me rethink this issue. The following lecture by David Silversides of Loughbrickland, Ulster, was helpful:

SermonAudio.com - The Antichrist - A Biblical & Confessional view

In the early 70's I attended Princeton Theological Seminary for one year. I took an introductory theology course with Dr. Edward Dowey, who chaired the committee of the UPCUSA, which wrote the neo-orthodox Confession of 1967. Though certainly a theological liberal, I found Dowey personally an interesting and honest man, knowledgeable of historical theology. I don’t think Dowey believed the Pope to be the Anti-Christ; but, he told an interesting story which he no doubt thought humorous.

Dowey served as a Presbyterian Navy chaplain in WWII with a Jesuit Roman Catholic chaplain. When he explained to the Jesuit the Reformed and confessional argument for the Pope being the Anti-Christ, the latter answered, “The logic is irrefutable; the thought is unthinkable.”

The thought was thinkable for the Westminster Assembly, Puritans, 17th century Church of Scotland., Covenanters, and is also for me. The Westminster Directory for the Public of God recommended:

To pray for the propagation of the gospel and kingdom of Christ to all nations; for the conversion of the Jews, the fulness of the Gentiles, the fall of Antichrist, and the hastening of the second coming of our Lord; for the deliverance of the distressed churches abroad from the tyranny of the antichristian faction, ...

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_de...formationidaho


Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

“The logic is irrefutable; the thought is unthinkable.”

I voted option 2 because 2 Thes. 2 does not specifically name the Pope, nor does any other scripture, as the antichrist. I do agree that the office of the papacy is antichrist as would be anyone who fills it under the current Roman doctrine.

Theognome

I just believe the Bible.

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Aaron Josh Wright
Deerbrook Baptist Church, Humble Tx
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary

And yet you held to a confession when you joined this board.

We cannot "just" believe the Bible as theology is not stated in a format that does not require interpretation, and in that interpretation we are not sovereign, the Church is, and the Church's interpretation is contained in the confessions.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

I subscribe to every word of the WCF as adopted by my denomination (OPC). We accept the amended version, i.e., the "non-Antichrist" version. Are you saying that the entire OPC in in violation of the WCF? (Please tell me you're not!)

To ask it another way, if the elders of my church have given me a book of standards (WCF, WLC, WSC, BCO), and those standards NOWHERE state that the Pope is the Antichrist, must I believe such a thing anyway to remain confessional, in your view?

-----Added 2/24/2009 at 03:45:42 EST-----

It appears pastor Farrell beat me to my point in the beginning of his post. Thank you, sir.

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Jacob Mearse
Reformation Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Olympia, WA
Student, Reformed Theological Seminary (Virtual)
Lieutenant, U.S. Navy
Husband to April; Daddy to Wesley, Cyrus, FaithMarie and SarahAnn.