Simple Question.

(Like anything on the PB could be simple )

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Ummm....

I guess I'd say he is one of many antichrists, but I'm an amil Riddlebargerite and probably we will see in the future a culmination of all the antichrists in a final most awful one. I'm speculating he'll be Islamic, as Islam and Mohammed is even more antiChrist than the Catholic church ever was. Perhaps the Pope and Islam will shack up in the spiritual bed together.

I appreciate you posting this as I now realize I have a disagreement with the WCF here. I will look forward to reading the replies.

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

I think that the old papacy certainly was I'm not too sure about the new one.

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Julio Perez
Visting Branch of Hope OPC hoping this will be my home church.....


“No…we are all priests. Your vocation and your contentment in your vocation should not be dependent upon your being in vocational ministry or in being a figure of public acclaim. If God wills that fine…if He does not do that, you ought to still do what he has granted you to do to the glory of God.”

-Martin Luther

The American revision of 1789 took out of the Westminster Confession of 1646 this notation as the Pope as Anti-Christ.

As far as the "new one" if anything the Popes since 1563 (Council of Trent) and 1870 (Vatican I) have moved in a direction that more blatantly fits 2 Thess 2.

I believe the pope is, or at least the office of pope.

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

I voted for the third option only because 2 Thessalonians 2 does not speak of the Antichrist but rather the "man of sin (lawless one)". In other words one has to assume that he should be identified as or be equal to the Antichrist (1 John 2,4; 2 John 7) which is not readily apparent.

And, for the record, no I do not believe that the pope and/or papacy is the Antichrist.

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

Perhaps 'an' anti-Christ and not 'the' anti-Christ, as an userper of the office. It does seem to fit in many ways - the notes in my Geneva talk about "a throne set up clean contrary to Christ's glory, wherein that wicked man shall sit and transfer all things that appertain to God, to himself, and many shall fall away from God to him" and "By speaking of one, he pointed out the body of the tyrannous and persecuting Church".

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

I believe the papacy to be anti-Christ but I do not believe the papacy to be the anti-Christ.

Whilst in the Irish Republic the local church formed a committee to write a church constitution. The committee was made of 4 men from within the church and all local believers along with the church planter (English), pastor (Irish) and myself (Scottish). We adopted the 1689 baptist confession and as leaders we suggested removal of the paragraph which stated the pope was the ani-Christ.

None of the local believers would accept its removal however. I was amazed as each local believer was converted from Catholicism, their families were all practicing RCs and much of their culture revolved asround the RC church. Also being in a small Irish town having a paragraph about the pope being the anti-Christ might cause problems. So we kept it in at the request of the local believers.

As I said in the first line, the papacy fits the description but I do not believe it to be the anti-Christ. It is a weakening church that now recognises some RC countries as missionfields themselves. ie France, Spain etc

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Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The Christian is a person who makes it easy for others to believe in God. (RM M'Cheyne)

According to my notes, the PCUSA retained it over a century until the 1903 changes.

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
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The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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I believe that Nero was the Anti-Christ.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I believe that the whole of scripture shows the Papacy as anti Christ

The Pope can only forgive someone who sins against him. He makes a blasphemous claim as "Vicar of Christ".

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Aw shucks! You mean I haveta give up telling everyone that Obama is THE Antichrist?

I lean towards Dr. Riddlebarger's explanation here and would need to parse my words carefully to avoid appearing unconfessional.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Vicar=Latin
Vice=English
Anti=Greek

Anti=Vicar

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[B]Manley Beasley[/B]
Southern Baptist Convention
Fayetteville, Arkansas

[B]Wir sein pettler. Hoc est verum (We are beggars. This is true.).--Luther's dying words[/B]

Vicarius Filii Dei If I remember correctly.

I agree with many on here, the papacy is anti-christ. It even perhaps will someday be the office of the anti-christ.

I believe that lawlessness will continue to get worse and worse, and people who have stopped going to churches where they heard the gospel are wide open to the cults and the "isms" of our day.

Here is what Wikipedia says.

Polycarp warned the Philippians that everyone that preached false doctrine was an antichrist.

Irenaeus speculated that it was “very probable” the Antichrist might be called Lateinos, which is Greek for “Latin Man”.

John Chrysostom warned against speculations and old wives' tales about the Antichrist, saying, “Let us not therefore enquire into these things”. He preached that by knowing Paul's description of the Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians Christians would avoid deception.

Augustine of Hippo wrote “it is uncertain in what temple [the Antichrist] shall sit, whether in that ruin of the temple which was built by Solomon, or in the Church.”

Hippolytus of Rome held that the Antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan and would rebuild the Jewish temple in order to reign from it. He identified the Antichrist with the Beast out of the Earth from the book of Revelation.

Tertullian held that the Roman Empire was the restraining force written about by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8. The fall of Rome and the disintegration of the ten provinces of the Roman Empire into ten kingdoms were to make way for the Antichrist.

Pope Gregory I wrote in A.D. 597, “I say with confidence that whoever calls or desires to call himself ‘universal priest’ in self-exaltation of himself is a precursor of the Antichrist.”

Archbishop Arnulf of Rheims wrote in A.D. 991, "What do you estimate this to be, reverend fathers? When you see him sitting on a lofty throne glittering in purple and gold, what do you estimate this to be, I say? Without a doubt, if he lacks love, and is only swelled up and lifted up, must he not be the Antichrist, 'sitting in the temple of God, and also showing himself as God'?"

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Rangerus
Southern Baptist
Austin, TX
Teacher and Volunteer
1689 LBCF & BF&M 2000

I believe that confessions of faith ought to not speak on secondary issues, including eschatological speculation.

That being said, the Pope fits the bill when it comes to the spirit of Antichrist.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I would have answered "other" but that option wasn't available.

I believe the papacy is the spirit of Antichrist but not THE Antichrist.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham,
BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
------------
"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the son to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -

Is the Pope the Antichrist?


Here is Martin Luther's answer:

"Since the Pope is a heretic, and idolater, Antichrist, and the red whore reeking with the blood of the pious, therefore we will not admit him into our presence...In fine, to make a treaty between us and the Pope, is to make a treaty between God and Belial. Nothing will come of it..."

Here's another quote:

Calvin this time--



"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."

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Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

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Where did you find the Calvin quote?

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Joe
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte
SC

the Papacy is not the anti christ because the Papacy does not deny that Jesus came in the flesh as per the definition of Anti Christ found in the epistle of John.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

NOW WAIT A MINUTE....Isn't this a "confessional board" and yet the majority don't follow the confessions on this issue!?!?!?

I follow the argumentation of G.I Williamson.

So are the confessions then wrong?

No, the WCF was amended.

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Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ

Are not there different ones now? The later confessions that come from the earlier ones are not the same anymore, specifically on this issue. I agree with the earlier ones that says the papacy is the anti-Christ.

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin
Book IV: Chapter 7, section(25).

And following this -- Calvin does IMO show that Paul's words in II Thess. 2 do, and must refer to the Papacy.

I would have liked the option of selecting "an" instead of "the".

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junior
Deacon
First Baptist Church of Richland Hills, Texas
Owning the 1677 Baptist Confession of Faith, 1680 Orthodox Catechism, & 1693 Baptist Catechism

I agree with HistoryB.

-----Added 1/11/2009 at 11:38:22 EST-----


I have a question concerning this. Doesn't the RC church deny and pronounce an anathema upon all who believe in justification by faith alone? Is that not denying the Person and work of Christ? They deny the Father and the Son in their denial of election. For if any man or angel bring you another gospel let him be accursed. If the RC's are accursed aren't they denying the Father and the Son?

The spirit of anti-Christ is to deny that Christ came in the flesh. It is a denial of his work. They do deny his work and set themselves up as the Thessalonian s passage speaks.

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R. Martin Snyder
1689er
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
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I think John has in mind something much more directly opposed to the incarnation of Christ, probably proto- (or full blown) gnostic heresies, rather than indirect conclusions drawn from their soteriology. The RCC upholds Nicea and Chalcedon, so this doesn't apply to them.

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Actually I agree with some of your assessment. John was addressing the gnostic heresies in this letter so this passage might not be as applicable.

But the RCC does deny the gospel and sets itself against God and His Word.

By your argument there is no "the antichrist" just "antichrists". So I would ask it differently. Do you believe the papacy is the "man of sin"?

-----Added 1/12/2009 at 12:24:24 EST-----

The issue is specifically related to 2 Thess. 2, not John. Most believe the "man of sin" is the same as "the antichrist". Either way, what do you think about the papacy being the "man of sin" in 2 Thess. 2?

I believe the Confession. (1646)

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Man, I hope the ECT police don't read this thread! After these comments even J.I. Packer couldn't find a nice word to say about any of us on the back of a book.

BTW, I would suggest that RC Christology is formally orthodox since it subscribes to the orthodox creeds and formulations (including the Chalcedonian Definition). Would that they had stuck with the Canons of the Council of Orange (529). However, RC soteriology and anthropology from the middle ages onwards is suffused with semi-Pelagianism and can hardly be said to be "biblical" in any meaningful sense. If infused righteousness is true, we might as well chuck the WCF and 1689 and go home to Rome. In the time of the Reformers the papacy was the embodiment of Antichrist. It did not exhuast the meaning of the term, however, IMO. I am still anticipating a future Antichrist to arise worthy of the name.

For those non-historicists.--There are a number of issues that I have never seen seriously dealt with in 2 Thess. 2. The passage points out a "man of sin" emerging from a false church. This man claims the authority of God over the church. Paul speaks of the "man of sin" in the present tense but says he is being restrained. Paul is discreet about the "you know what" that is restraining. Later the "man of sin" is being restrained by a "he". What is the "you know what" and the "he" that restrains the MOS? Keep in mind that there must be an adequate explanation for the obvious discretion Paul is using when describing the restrainers.

I need to ask again, "Are the present Confessions wrong in this area?" and if you thank that they are, can you be "Confessional?"

All those who are responding "no" or "I don't know" that hold elder positions, have you voiced this area of disagreement with the Confession?

Pergy,
1. you're trying to change the topic and
2. you are trying to stir the pot.

We've had enough pot stirring lately so why don't you take a break from it for now. If you keep picking at scabs then the wounds never heal. Not sure what you're fishing for my friend for but let's put the bait away for a while.

(For those keeping score, that was 'pot stirring', 'scab picking' and 'fishing and baiting' in a small space. I am the Master of Metaphor.)

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

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I hold to the confessions

__________________
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
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Soli Deo Gloria

May I recommend Roman Catholicism by Martyn Lloyd-Jones, found here (links on Roman Catholicism are found here)

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Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

I'm making a valid point.

On the PB all the time people fight over the term "Reformed" and over who owns this term and over what it means to be "confessional."

Then, a poll comes out over a piece of Puritan eschatology that might show that the Divines were also children of their times, and the majority of those taking the poll are not sure if the Confessions are right on this point.

So, naturally, this gets me intrigued...especially since I've been told I am "unconfessional" and I am not allowed to use the term "Reformed" because I am baptist, when in fact I might be more Confesssional than many on this poll answering "no" as to whether that feller in the funny hat is the incarnation of evil and that man of sin....

It IS pot-stirring, but it is not gratuitious pot stirring. It is a very relevant point about the nature of being "Reformed"
and "Confessional."



REVISION: It looks like the Yeses have pulled ahead...but there is an awful lot of "no's" and these no answers are what intrigues me and why I posted my scab-scratching, wedgie-giving post.