Do Some Preterists Believe The Fulness Of The Gentiles Came In Before 70 AD?

KMK · #1 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 10:08 AM

I have heard it said on PB that there are orthodox preterists who see all of Matt 24 and 25 as being fulfilled in 70 AD.

Can one be orthodox and see Rom 11 as being fulfilled in 70 AD?

puritan lad · #2 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 10:23 AM

Some Amillennial preterist (orthodox) do hold this position. As a postmillennialist, I disagree. Seems that the passage requires fleshly Israel (however that is defined) to eventually come to the faith.

BobVigneault · #3 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 10:27 AM

Pastor Ken,

I don't see the 'fullness' used in verse 25 to be the same meaning as we find in a phrase such as 'the fullness of time'. This is not speaking of a much later date but of a state of being that looks back at verse 12.

12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

The fullness is the state of being fully included in the covenant. A transitional period between Christ's great commission and the destruction of Jerusalem (and the sacrificial system). So by 70AD the gentiles are now fully included in the covenant. A partial hardening had been sent on the Jews but for all time the Jews would be saved in the same manner as the gentiles.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

KMK · #4 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Pastor Ken,

I don't see the 'fullness' used in verse 25 to be the same meaning as we find in a phrase such as 'the fullness of time'. This is not speaking of a much later date but of a state of being that looks back at verse 12.

12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

The fullness is the state of being fully included in the covenant. A transitional period between Christ's great commission and the destruction of Jerusalem (and the sacrificial system). So by 70AD the gentiles are now fully included in the covenant. A partial hardening had been sent on the Jews but for all time the Jews would be saved in the same manner as the gentiles.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So you would say that not only has the 'fulness' of the Gentiles come in, but the 'partial hardening' of Israel is finished? If so, is Israel still experiencing hardening today?

BobVigneault · #5 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 11:45 AM

If by Israel you mean ethnic Israel than yes, the hardening is done. In fact God is done with ethnic Israel in every way. The Jew is saved in the same way as the gentile. As Paul said, the only advantage the Jew has is that the oracles were his to begin with - he has no further to look than his own Scriptures to find Christ.

I'm being very careful here Pastor Ken because I don't want us to ever disagree again. That was awful! (Hug)

PuritanBouncer · #6 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 11:55 AM

I agree with Bob! (but I aint hugging) lol

BobVigneault · #7 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 01:43 PM

Come on Adam. Don't tell me you're not a hugger. You were a wrestler, what's the difference? You look like a big huggable teddy bear. Mostly bear I suppose but come on.

I hugged Ivan last week right out in the open in Applebees.

ModernPuritan? · #8 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 02:25 PM

im gonna point ----> and

at all this hugging.

KMK · #9 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

If by Israel you mean ethnic Israel than yes, the hardening is done. In fact God is done with ethnic Israel in every way. The Jew is saved in the same way as the gentile. As Paul said, the only advantage the Jew has is that the oracles were his to begin with - he has no further to look than his own Scriptures to find Christ.

And, to keep this on topic, the answer to the OP is, yes, some preterists believe Rom 11 has been fulfilled and they are orthodox in doing so. After all the test of orthodoxy is

I've always wanted to work that particular emoticon into a post!

BobVigneault · #10 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 09:12 PM

Well, I wouldn't be so bold to say I'm the sole test. Perhaps Gary DeMar, Adam AND me would be enough authority.

BobVigneault · #11 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 09:16 PM

Regarding the OP, I don't know of any orthodox preterists (partial) that would say that ALL of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. There is a transitional verse in there where Jesus stops speaking of 70AD and begins to address the final consumation. You are right though, the preterist has the canon completely closed by 70AD and every Biblical propecy fulfilled with the exception of the final return of Jesus.

KMK · #12 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Regarding the OP, I don't know of any orthodox preterists (partial) that would say that ALL of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. There is a transitional verse in there where Jesus stops speaking of 70AD and begins to address the final consumation. You are right though, the preterist has the canon completely closed by 70AD and every Biblical propecy fulfilled with the exception of the final return of Jesus.

The reason I mentioned that is because of this post by Scott Kessler from this thread: What Prevents A Preterist From Becoming Hyper?

Quote:

There are a few orthodox preterist (Gary DeMar) like myself who do view all of Matt 23,24,and 25 as being fulfilled. What we agree on is that the Second Advent, Resurrection, and Final Judgment have yet to take place.

According to Scott, DeMar does see Matt 25 as fulfilled in 70 AD.

armourbearer · #13 (**permalink**) 04-22-2008, 10:00 PM

70AD -- Is it the number seven multiplied by ten that makes it look so significant?

Daniel Ritchie · #14 (**permalink**) 04-23-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

70AD -- Is it the number seven multiplied by ten that makes it look so significant?

When Jack Chick becomes a preterist he can answer that for you.

KMK · #15 (**permalink**) 04-23-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

70AD -- Is it the number seven multiplied by ten that makes it look so significant?

From E. W. Bullinger's notes in the Companion Bible here: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app10.html

Quote:

SEVEN. Denotes spiritual perfection. It is the number or hall-mark of the Holy Spirit's work. He is the Author of God's Word, and seven is stamped on it as the water-mark is seen in the manufacture of paper. He is the Author and Giver of life; and seven is the number which regulates every period of Incubation and Gestation, in insects, birds, animals, and man.

TEN. Denotes Ordinal perfection. Another new first; after the ninth digit, when numeration commences anew.

Other numbers follow the laws which govern the smaller numbers, as being their factors, sums, products or multiples:

I guess the year 70 symoblizes spiritual and ordinal perfection.

armourbearer · #16 (**permalink**) 04-23-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

I guess the year 70 symoblizes spiritual and ordinal perfection.

I knew there had to be some reason why the year 70 was more important than, say, the year 1000.

unlearnedlearner · #17 (**permalink**) 04-24-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

I have heard it said on PB that there are orthodox preterists who see all of Matt 24 and 25 as being fulfilled in 70 AD.

Can one be orthodox and see Rom 11 as being fulfilled in 70 AD?

Yes, and I lean in that direction, although not completely convinced.

In short, this is why we don't go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. Judaism/Jews are irrelevant at this point in redemptive history. They served their role, but the Kingdom was taken from them.

KMK · #18 (**permalink**) 04-24-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unlearnedlearner

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

I have heard it said on PB that there are orthodox preterists who see all of Matt 24 and 25 as being fulfilled in 70 AD.

Can one be orthodox and see Rom 11 as being fulfilled in 70 AD?

Yes, and I lean in that direction, although not completely convinced.

In short, this is why we don't go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. Judaism/Jews are irrelevant at this point in redemptive history. They served their role, but the Kingdom was taken from them.

Hey, you have been a member of PB since 2003. When do you officially graduate to 'learner'?

Anton Bruckner · #19 (**permalink**) 04-24-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

70AD -- Is it the number seven multiplied by ten that makes it look so significant?

When Jack Chick becomes a preterist he can answer that for you.

MOSES · #20 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 04:10 PM

Here is an interesting twist to throw into this thread.

Some encyclopedia quotes to consider.

Quote:

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism. In fact, one is defined a Jew by legal dispensation or coercion, with race playing no part at all:

From our vantage point in history...there is no ethnic nation of Israel to consider in regards to biblical prophecy.
Probably, nearly, everyone who claims to be a jew, or is in "national" Israel is NOT a physical descendant of Abraham. They are gentiles that call themselves Jews by affiliation with a relegious system.

The kigdom was taken from "them" and given to another almost 2000 years ago. The promises concerning ancient Israel were fulfilled in the elect (many ancient Jews being part of that, e.g., Paul himself). The non-elect were thrown in the fiery furnace, destroyed, and only the remnant remained, and they shine fourth in the kingdom of God, in the Church of Christ.