Thread: Christians Resurrected To Judgment?

Originally Posted by Scott1

TeachingTulip
My concern is the possibility of the N.T. church establishing a meritorious system and again imposing obedience to law upon believers to achieve or earn favor with God, instead of stressing His gift of grace through faith in the obedience of Jesus Christ, alone.

New Testament (or Old Testament) believers, all under the "covenant of grace," cannot possibly earn salvation because the fall has left them without ability to perfectly obey God. Only Jesus can and did that. God requires perfect obedience, but man disobeys. Only Christ perfectly obeyed and He lived a perfect life and died a perfect death as sacrifice for our sins.

That's why faith in Christ's righteousness alone is what justifies us in God's sight.

But reformed theology also summarizes Scripture to say that there is much use for the law:

1) to point to our need for Christ
2) to restrain evil
3) as a mirror of what the Christian life should look like

We are "free" from the law in the sense it will not condemn us on the judgment day. The unbeliever will be judged by it, and condemned by it, justly by his Creator.

But it is a rule of life for the believer. It outlines God will for our lives, and reveals what pleases and displeases Him. Trying to keep the law, in that sense, is very much a part of the life of the believer.

A believer ought constantly be measuring himself up in accordance with the Word of God, repenting as God reveals his disobedience in thought, word and deed.

There is a much use for the law in the life of the believer.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God

....
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

Philippians 2:12

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I agree with your assessment of the law, that accords with the WCF. No argument here.

The danger and concern I point out, is the church establishing a merit system (or even a demerit system) motivated to achieve or earn rewards, according to obedience under the law.

IOW's, good works are evidence of faith only when they are the result of justification and imputed righteousness. They are not the cause or the means to retaining justification or meriting rewards. We can and must rest in Christ's obedience under the law, for both.

What do you make of the passage of Hebrews 4:1-11 that speaks of entering God's rest? What does that say to you?

It's the assessment of the Westminster Confession, and it is the assessment of the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture.

In a sense, Christ certainly merited salvation. He perfectly obeyed God in thought, word and deed. Jesus did what Adam did not do, Jesus did live a perfect sinless life... and it is our faith in that alone, a faith God alone gives us that justifies us in God's sight.

You would do well to study the Westminster Larger Catechism, there is a long line of questions about use of the law in the life of a believer, particularly the Ten Commandments.

Disobeying God's revealed will (e.g. His Ten Commandments) result in temporal miseries, a distancing sense from God, and an account at the judgment day.

May God help us to obey Him.

Originally Posted by OPC'n

Romans 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

How do you show honor?

Thank you for the reference, Sarah. I have never heard this verse used as you have applied it.

Yes, it is Christ's righteousness that I "militantly" arm myself in order to mortify the flesh. The flesh is no weak foe that you can blow over with the puff of wind. This is a fierce spiritual war in which we are engaged.

Actually, imputation of righteousness is a legal ruling; absolving us of all guilt before God, more than a means to fight the temptations of the flesh. I believe the Person of the Holy Spirit is being overlooked at bit at this point, and that Romans 8:2-13 would be more applicable in this regard.

I know that imputation doesn't mean infusion. If I thought Christ's righteousness was infused into us, then I wouldn't think that I have a spiritual war against my flesh on my hands bc I would be completely righteous already....I'm not roman catholic.

Good point.

Matthew 11:11Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Well, I do not think these verses describe the "church militant" at all. Again, the church is called upon to be militant against spiritual enemies; principalities and powers, moreso than being militant against one's own flesh. Ephesians 6:10-17 would be more applicable in this regard, IMO.

I see you have found the last Scripture (Phil 2:12-13) and as I have said repeatedly we work out our sanctification (vv 12 states this) by the working of the Holy Spirit (vv 13 states this).

And as I have said, I do not consider saving faith or Godly sanctification to be a passive process, but rather a natural effect caused by the presence, indwelling, and sealing of the Holy Spirit who tabernacles in the saints. Evidencing His spiritual fruits is proof of our regeneration and justification. (Gal. 5:22-25, James 2:17-26)

What do you make of the Hebrews 4:1-11 passage. What does "entering God's rest" mean to you?

[quote=TeachingTulip;688119]

Originally Posted by OPC'n

Romans 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

How do you show honor?

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

Thank you for the reference, Sarah. I have never heard this verse used as you have applied it.

NP!

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

Actually, imputation of righteousness is a legal ruling; absolving us of all guilt before God, more than a means to fight the temptations of the flesh. I believe the Person of the Holy Spirit is being overlooked at bit at this point, and that Romans 8:2-13 would be more applicable in this regard.

No, justification is the legal ruling that makes us right before God and absolves our guilt before God. Imputation is Christ's righteous works are imputed to us and it is by the Holy Spirit that we are sanctified.



Good point.

Matthew 11:11Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

Well, I do not think these verses describe the "church militant" at all. Again, the church is called upon to be militant against spiritual enemies; principalities and powers, moreso than being militant against one's own flesh. Ephesians 6:10-17 would be more applicable in this regard, IMO.

?huh? Which spiritual enemies does the church fight as a whole yet not as individuals? Our number one spiritual enemy is our flesh. If we were able to control our flesh, it wouldn't matter which temptations Satan or the world brought placed in front of us.

Originally Posted by OPC'n

I see you have found the last Scripture (Phil 2:12-13) and as I have said repeatedly we work out our sanctification (vv 12 states this) by the working of the Holy Spirit (vv 13 states this).

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

And as I have said, I do not consider saving faith or Godly sanctification to be a passive process, but rather a natural effect caused by the presence, indwelling, and sealing of the Holy Spirit who tabernacles in the saints. Evidencing His spiritual fruits is proof of our regeneration and justification. (Gal. 5:22-25, James 2:17-26)

So you don't feel that you must do anything in your sanctification process....more of a "let go and let God" sort of thing?

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

do you make of the Hebrews 4:1-11 passage. What does "entering God's rest" mean to you?

I believe it is speaking of the Gospel and it is also speaking of the Sabbath day.

My feeble take on these things is this.... Tell me where I'm erring, because I'm sure I am:

Our flesh tends to obscure the issue. When the Lord said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.", the flesh says "Oooh, I better start acting better - or God's not gonna bless me / so God will bless me / so I can prove how much I love Him / etc..." The new creation says "He said I will, therefore I can. Oh, why don't I more? Why don't I love Him enough? It is this body of death that hinders me, accursed burden! Oh Lord, deliver me from it and let me love You more, love You as You deserve!" And He hears and drives those hindrances out before us little by little, as He did the nations before the Israelites under Joshua, some provinces quicker, some slower than others - all in accordance with His love for His people and His intent to glorify the wonders of His holiness before the heavenly hosts.

He hears the cry, "Help me, Lord!", but ignores the exclamation of "Look at ME!".

So the rewards awaiting us in heaven may lie in the opposite direction we tend to think, not for mighty glowing acts of good works, but for lowly manifestations of love, which we will cast at His feet because any ability we have to demonstrate that love comes from His hand anyway.

Is that too far off the mark?

Originally Posted by Scott1

In a sense, Christ certainly merited salvation. He perfectly obeyed God in thought, word and deed. Jesus did what Adam did not do, Jesus did live a perfect sinless life

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the law through perfect obedience, submitting His will to the will of the Father, in performance of Covenant. Jesus Christ kept the Covenant of Works as federal head and representative of His people. This covenant was performed by Christ on behalf of His people, so legal grounds could be made to imput His righteousness to their account by God, and they might live thereafter under the Covenant of Grace. . .all of which covenant, He also performs.

Jesus Christ was not motivated to merit salvation, for He was sinless and was not in need of salvation. He was motivated to merit the salvation of His people. Jesus Christ was not motivated to gain reward, either. The Son of God is His own reward, and the "rewarder" is God Himself.

The promised reward in Scripture, is made to those "who diligently seek God". (Hebrews 11:6) Of course, no natural and unrepentant man seeks God; no not one. So the diligent seeking of God hearkens back to the presence, indwelling, and sealing of the Holy Spirit who tabernacles with the sons of God. All those who have been born again through the power of the Holy Spirit, will receive the reward of God . . .which I believe is union in Jesus Christ, and inheritance of His glory in the kingdom of heaven.

... and it is our faith in that alone, a faith God alone gives us that justifies us in God's sight.

Agreed!

You would do well to study the Westminster Larger Catechism, there is a long line of questions about use of the law in the life of a believer, particularly the Ten Commandments.

Thank you for your advice. I will continue to study the Holy Scriptures; the Confessions, and the Creeds to the best of my ability.

Disobeying God's revealed will (e.g. His Ten Commandments) result in temporal miseries, a distancing sense from God,

Yes. The Christian can suffer temporal consequences when he sins. I deny he will suffer any eternal consequences for sin at all.

and an account at the judgment day.

May God help us to obey Him.

Here is where you lose me. Temporal sins are forgiven sins. Confessed sins are forgiven sins. Failure to obey is justified sin. All sins have been remitted by the blood of Christ, and all believers are justified by grace through faith, alone. Not by works, lest any of us should boast.

So where is it taught that any sins will be held against the believers; counted as bad works, and therefore requiring accountability and maybe even loss of reward? That smacks of "double jeopardy" to me, if Christ has already borne and suffered God's wrath and judgment for these sins. Our accounts with God do not even show these sins, for the righteousness obedience of Christ has been legally imputed to our records instead!

I believe that Justification by Faith alone is a once-and-for-all pardon for all crimes committed by the elect of God.

If the Christian is justified by faith, and not by works, why would Christ hold him accountable on Judgment Day for his works? Will it not rather be our faith by which we are "acknowledged and acquitted" on that Day?

-----Added 9/12/2009 at 07:07:36 EST-----

Originally Posted by Brad

My feeble take on these things is this.... Tell me where I'm erring, because I'm sure I am:

Our flesh tends to obscure the issue. When the Lord said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.", the flesh says "Oooh, I better start acting better - or God's not gonna bless me / so God will bless me / so I can prove how much I love Him / etc..." The new creation says "He said I will, therefore I can. Oh, why don't I more? Why don't I love Him enough? It is this body of death that hinders me, accursed burden! Oh Lord, deliver me from it and let me love You more, love You as You deserve!" And He hears and drives those hindrances out before us little by little, as He did the nations before the Israelites under Joshua, some provinces quicker, some slower than others - all in accordance with His love for His people and His intent to glorify the wonders of His holiness before the heavenly hosts.

He hears the cry, "Help me, Lord!", but ignores the exclamation of "Look at ME!".

So the rewards awaiting us in heaven may lie in the opposite direction we tend to think, not for mighty glowing acts of good works, but for lowly manifestations of love, which we will cast at His feet because any ability we have to demonstrate that love comes from His hand anyway.

Is that too far off the mark?

I think this right on mark. I have bolded your words that struck me most.

And I believe our lowly manifestations of love toward God consist mainly of faithfulness and gratitude for His Son.

It is He and His glory that should be the center of our interests regarding Judgment Day.

I would be interested in knowing what you and Sarah think about the biblical exhortation in Hebrews 4:1-11 regarding entering God's rest. What does that passage mean to you?

I don't know what Sarah thinks about this passage, but I take the view of Walter Chantry, from his book "Call the Sabbath a Delight" that this passage is not about resting from our sinful attempts to justify ourselves or from other sinful works, but is about the fact that in the New Covenant we are on our way to enter the Heavenly Rest from our labours on earth, and that the Sabbath is a pointer to that. The key text is "There remains the keeping of a Sabbath to the people of God; for He who did enter His rest did rest from all His works, even as God did from His." (Hebrews 4:9-10)

The writer to the Hebrews is showing why it is necessary for there to continue to be a Sabbath Day in the New Covenant. The reason is that until we reach Heaven we haven't entered our full rest. We need to rest from otherwise good works on the Sabbath.

The reason that rest from sinful attempts to justify ourselves or rest from other sinful works is a red herring here is because

(a) God rested from good works on the Sabbath and that remains the intention of the Sabbath for man. That did not change at the Fall.

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." (Heb. 4:4)

We are meant to rest from sinful attempts to justify ourselves and other sinful works not just on the Sabbath but every day. But on the Sabbath we also rest from otherwise good works. In Heaven we shall also rest from otherwise good works which we did on Earth.

The Seven Day week, revealed to Man by special revelation, and weekly Sabbath, has always been a pointer, eschatalogically, to a new order of work, rest, play and worship in the Heavenly Kingdom.

(b) The "He" Who did enter His rest and did rest from all His works, as God did from His, is Christ. He did not rest from sinful attempts to justify Himself or from sin, as that would not be an reflection of God's good work of original Old Creation. When he rose on the First Day of the Week, His rest was from the good work of the New Creation and His state of humiliation.

Enjoy a blessed Sabbath Day, the first day of the New Creation. We're just half-an-hour into it here.

Thanks for the answers Sarah and Richard regarding your takes on what "entering God's rest" means to you.

Obviously, both of you consider the rest of God as speaking of Sabbath laws, although Sarah mentions gospel, but without explanation.

I consider God's rest as defining the new Covenant of Grace that gives us rest and relief from the Covenant of Works; the Sabbath observances being types.

Seems to pursue this, though, I should begin another thread . . .

-----Added 9/12/2009 at 08:40:46 EST-----

It is probably time to wrap this thread up, for we have reached the point where we are repeating Scriptures and Confessional quotes back and forth, according to differing views, and this will not take us much further.

I am going to quote statements that have increased my concern regarding this subject, which might make those of you aware of current events occurring in the Reformed churches understand my consternation better . . .or perhaps you might choose to tell me this is irrelevent and not to worry over much.

"The final judgment is according to our works (and, of course, for Christians our works are also gifts from God and the fruit of His gracious work in us; thus, Augustine says when God rewards our works, He is crowning His own works). Clearly, it is on the basis of these works that men receive 'according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.' The Scriptures teach that God the Father has given all judgment into the hands of the Son. The Son, in turn, judges the works we have done, which are the fruits of the Spirit's work in us. Thus, the rewards given on the basis of our works are also gracious gifts not 'payments for services rendered.'"

Steve Wilkins, Letter to Louisiana Presbytery Regarding the Declarations of the PCA GA



"Yes, we do have the same obligation that Adam (and Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Jesus) had, namely, the obedience of faith. And, yes, covenant faithfulness is the way to salvation, for the 'doers of the law will be justified' at the final judgment. But this is all done in union with Christ, so that 'our' covenant faithfulness is dependent on the work of the Spirit of Christ in us, and our covenant faithfulness is about faith, trusting the Spirit to will and to according to His good pleasure."

Peter Leithart

(Underlined emphasis, mine)

These quotes did not motivate my thread on this subject. I just recently discovered them, but they confirm my view, that the subject is important to pin down as a matter of Scriptural and Confessional orthodoxy, for the good of the churches. For if this is the stance of these men, whose other errors threaten the spiritual health of the Reformed churches, the subject of this thread should be reviewed and rethought, at least.

Wilkins is positing through abuse of texts, justification - at least partially - by works; a heretical position.

We are saying that sanctification involves good works. Something quite different.

How could we be sanctified without good works? We have no confidence in these good works for our justification/acceptance with God for Heaven, because they are riddled with impurities and imperfections. God graciously rewards such works, to the extent they are done from a proper motive and through the intercession of Christ.

I suspect people like Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones and Calvin will receive bigger rewards than many of us.

Wilkins' is "Federal Vision" teaching. See the relevant section on the Puritanboard.

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Wilkins is positing through abuse of texts, justification - at least partially - by works; a heretical position.

We are saying that sanctification involves good works. Something quite different.

Wilkins' is "Federal Vision" teaching. See the relevant section on the Puritanboard.

So is Peter Leithart!!!

We would be utterly lost if our Forensic State before God would depend upon our works.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Obviously, both of you consider the rest of God as speaking of Sabbath laws, although Sarah mentions gospel, but without explanation.

I consider God's rest as defining the new Covenant of Grace that gives us rest and relief from the Covenant of Works; the Sabbath observances being types.

In anticipation of such a thread:-

The Sabbath institution was set up for Adam and Eve along with the Covenant of Works. The only rest and relief needed was time to rest from the task of the Creation Mandate and to worship God for all His works. The Seven Day week and the Sabbath were pointers to the eschatalogical heavenly kingdom.

No rest and relief were needed from the Covenant of Works, because Adam and Eve were perfectly good and righteous, and all they had to do to maintain that original righteousness was precisely nothing i.e. the command on which their probation rested was negative. All they had to do was not eat from the Tree. They were still in the Covenant of Works on the Sabbath, anyway.

Calvin said some things on the Sabbath in the Institutes, which many Reformed scholars have found uncharacteristically less than helpful e.g. Dabney and Richard Gaffin.

We still need a Sabbath Day, as the writer to the Hebrews says, because although we are in a better position than the Old Covenant believers, having a greater fullness of the Spirit, a complete revelation, and being freed from various childhood-Church laws, and although the New Creation has commenced in principle with the resurrection of Christ and the coming of the powers of the Age to Come in the pouring out of the Spirit - so that the Sabbath Day changes from the Last Day of the week to the First, thus having a more forward-looking aspect - we still need a Sabbath Day, from a moral and practical point of view, because we haven't entered our final perfect eschatalogical rest, which is pointed to by the Seven Day Week crowned by the Sabbath.

Now that we are justified we rest from our sinful attempts to justify ourselves everyday, not just on the Sabbath. The same was true for believers in the Old Testament under both the Patriarchal and Mosaic administrations. We also seek to rest from all sin every day through the process of faith, repentance, new obedience, and sanctification. This was also true, in its own way, of the Old Testament saints.

Originally Posted by TeachingTulip

Thanks for the answers Sarah and Richard regarding your takes on what "entering God's rest" means to you.

Obviously, both of you consider the rest of God as speaking of Sabbath laws, although Sarah mentions gospel, but without explanation.

I consider God's rest as defining the new Covenant of Grace that gives us rest and relief from the Covenant of Works; the Sabbath observances being types.

Seems to pursue this, though, I should begin another thread . . .

-----Added 9/12/2009 at 08:40:46 EST-----

It is probably time to wrap this thread up, for we have reached the point where we are repeating Scriptures and Confessional quotes back and forth, according to differing views, and this will not take us much further.

I am going to quote statements that have increased my concern regarding this subject, which might make those of you aware of current events occurring in the Reformed churches understand my consternation better . . .or perhaps you might choose to tell me this is irrelevent and not to worry over much.

"The final judgment is according to our works (and, of course, for Christians our works are also gifts from God and the fruit of His gracious work in us; thus, Augustine says when God rewards our works, He is crowning His own works). Clearly, it is on the basis of these works that men receive 'according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.' The Scriptures teach that God the Father has given all judgment into the hands of the Son. The Son, in turn, judges the works we have done, which are the fruits of the Spirit's work in us. Thus, the rewards given on the basis of our works are also gracious gifts not 'payments for services rendered.'"

Steve Wilkins, Letter to Louisiana Presbytery Regarding the Declarations of the PCA GA



"Yes, we do have the same obligation that Adam (and Abraham, and Moses, and David, and Jesus) had, namely, the obedience of faith. And, yes, covenant faithfulness is the way to salvation, for the 'doers of the law will be justified' at the final judgment. But this is all done in union with Christ, so that 'our' covenant faithfulness is dependent on the work of the Spirit of Christ in us, and our covenant faithfulness is about faith, trusting the Spirit to will and to according to His good pleasure."

Peter Leithart

(Underlined emphasis, mine)

These quotes did not motivate my thread on this subject. I just recently discovered them, but they confirm my view, that the subject is important to pin down as a matter of Scriptural and Confessional orthodoxy, for the good of the churches. For if this is the stance of these men, whose other errors threaten the spiritual health of the Reformed churches, the subject of this thread should be reviewed and rethought, at least.

Giving us these quotes shows how much you don't understand what we are saying. These quotes do not represent anything of what we've said....AT ALL! In running from one horrid "doctrine" (FV), be sure not to run too far in the opposite direction, for therein, lies another horrid doctrine. The path of truth is narrow.

The name of the other doctine that you shouldn't run to, is Hyper -"Calvinism"
and it's associated Antinomianism.

And I'm not saying that's where you are now!

TeachingTulip;

The Christian can suffer temporal consequences when he sins. I deny he will suffer any eternal consequences for sin at all.

I think there is a miss-communication going on here, where your talking around each other.

Scott has no where said that a Christian will suffer eternal consequences for their sin, he has steadfastly maintained that debt was paid on the Cross.

It appears you are not understanding the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what it will be in the life of a Believer.

The Judgment seat of Christ is a Seat of Reward's or Losses, for some there will be many lost rewards. Rewards they will not receive because of things they did not do or say, when given the opportunity; while for others they will receive rewards they are not expecting--

In reading the following verses they tell us how those rewards/loss of rewards will be determined, they will revealed by fire--will the works we do burn up as hay and wood burns? or will they survive like gold or silver where they are purified and refined?


5) The Crown of Righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8). This crown is a reward given for faithfulness to use our gifts and opportunities in the service of the Lord and for loving His appearing. Note that these two things go together. To love His appearing is to live in the light of it.

(6) The Crown of Glory (1 Pet. 5:4). This crown is a reward promised to Elders for faithfulness in the discharge of their responsibilities in shepherding the people.

4) The Crown of Life (Jam. 1:12; Rev. 2:10). This crown is given for enduring testings (trials) and temptation. The crown is not eternal life which is a gift through faith alone in Christ alone (Jn. 4:10; Rom. 3:24; 5:15-17; 6:23; Eph. 2:8), but a reward for enduring trials and overcoming temptation.

1Cr 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here is an article on the topic of rewards or loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ | Bible.org

So the judgment Christians will endure will not be about their 'sins' --but their works, their ability to endure temptation and not give in, their faithfulness to Christ or not..

Thank you, Bobbi, I think that's very clear and good Scriptural references, btw!

Ronda, do you believe that you will inherit rewards for the good works worked within you by the Holy Spirit? So June 15, 1995 you gave a brother/sister a drink of water and a reward will be given to you at the Judgement Day. However, on June 16, 1995 you refused to give a brother/sister a drink of water. You will "loose" any reward you could have received by not giving them a drink of water. That's a really simplistic example and maybe not a good one. All of this, of course, is under the direct sovereignty of God Who beforehand decided in which good works we would walk (Eph 2:10), but that we indeed would walk in them....meaning we would actively do good works (working out our sanctification via the Holy Spirit)....striving for that mark set before us.

Scott1
and an account at the judgment day.

May God help us to obey Him.

TeachingTulip
Here is where you lose me.

J.I. Packer, Concise Theology (p. 256-257):

In the case of those who profess to be Christ's, review of their actual words and works (Matt. 12:36-37) will have the special point of uncovering the evidence that shows whether their profession is the fruit of an honest regenerate heart (Matt. 12:33-35) or merely the parrot-cry of a hypocritical religiosity (Matt. 7:21-23). Everything about everybody will be exposed on Judgement Day (I Cor. 4:5) and each will receive from God according to what he or she really is...

Knowledge of future judgment is always a summons to present repentance. Only the penitent will be prepared for judgement when it comes.

Originally Posted by BJClark

Here is an article on the topic of rewards or loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Please read the title of this thread and my OP. My remarks had to do with whether justified saints, imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ, were to be held accountable for forgiven sins on Judgment Day. This thread and my OP were not meant to discuss rewards or loss of rewards, although repeatedly the discussion has reverted to that subject.

The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ | Bible.org

A quote from this website you linked to:

"As it will be shown below, though it is tremendously serious with eternal ramifications, the judgment seat of Christ is not a place and time when the Lord will mete out punishment for sins committed by the child of God. Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord."

The underlined sentence answers my OP. I see a difference between works being tested by fire, rewards given to the saints, and saints being held accountable for sins (i.e. "idle words").

The second sentence is another subject.

This constant reversion to discussing rewards for good works, instead of discussing whether the Christian will be held accountable for any kinds of sin, reveals a prevalent attitude that good works will actually constitute our accountability before God.

As you said:

So the judgment Christians will endure will not be about their 'sins' --but their works, their ability to endure temptation and not give in, their faithfulness to Christ or not..

This does not address my OP.

And IMO, this dangerously borders on depending in our good works more than resting in the imputed obedience and righteous works of Jesus Christ, and thereby adding one's works to justification by faith alone.

-----Added 9/13/2009 at 07:14:10 EST-----

Originally Posted by Scott1

J.I. Packer, Concise Theology (p. 256-257):


Knowledge of future judgment is always a summons to present repentance. Only the penitent will be prepared for judgement when it comes.

What I have said throughout this discussion!

A Christian who faithfully confesses his sins, has a High Priest and Advocate with the Father who is faithful and just to continually cleanse him of all unrighteousness.

When the Christian appears with Christ at the judgment throne, and held accountable, his account will be clean for the only thing recorded to his account will be the imputed obedience of Jesus Christ.

TeachingTulip
"As it will be shown below, though it is tremendously serious with eternal ramifications, the judgment seat of Christ is not a place and time when the Lord will mete out punishment for sins committed by the child of God. Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord."

The underlined sentence answers my OP.

Actually, Ronda, this illustrates the inconsistency of your statements throughout this thread.

The last sentence, which you did not underline, addresses the original post.

Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord."

Originally Posted by Scott1

TeachingTulip
"As it will be shown below, though it is tremendously serious with eternal ramifications, the judgment seat of Christ is not a place and time when the Lord will mete out punishment for sins committed by the child of God. Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord."

The underlined sentence answers my OP.

Actually, Ronda, this illustrates the inconsistency of your statements throughout this thread.

The last sentence, which you did not underline, addresses the original post.

Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord."

If you say so, you have not understood my OP from the get-go, and you remain

If no one is understanding anyone else, it might be time to call it a wrap.