"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

What is the scope of 1 Tim. 2:12-14 or what are the settings in which it applies? I once heard it suggested that it is talking about husbands and wives rather than men and women in general (and this was from a complimentarian). I thought it was a bit of a stretch at the time, but I'm finding it more compelling than the view that says it is talking about the gathered body of believers. Usually those who take this view limit it to the church. What is the reason for that? It seems strange that Paul would use the line of argument that he does if he meant to limit the scope to the ecclesiastical sphere. Why wouldn't "Adam was formed first, then Eve" apply to all of life--the workplace, government, etc.? Why should the scope be something other than married couples at one extreme or all spheres of life on the other?

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

I do not believe it is limited to the church... But in all situations and in all sphere's of authority...

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Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord

Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus

Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis

mmmm. So would you say a woman should not participate in place like the PB?

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B.B.
Elder
GBC

Deo volente

As do I. Ephesians 5:22-33 places the man as the authority in the home as well. We can see the mind set of God with regards to this issue in both sections of scripture.

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Pastor Mark A. Mitchell
Senior Pastor/ Second Chance Baptist Church
SBC Affiliated
Wauchula Florida
www.pastormarkmitchell.org
www.2ndchc.org

what about a family business that the husband and wife starts and they decide to hire someone who turns out to be a man? Shouldn't the woman rule over him? After all it is her business and her property.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

How does that fit with Prov 31? How can a woman buy and sell land without being in authority over someone?

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church

Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

I'm waiting anxiously for someone to answer your question

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Shhh. Quiet!

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I eagerly await as well

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Nikki Edmond
New Beginnings Believers Bible Fellowship (Family's Church), Non-Denom
Los Angeles, CA
www.haveatulip.com - Chat Room for Reformed Believers
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I was reminded of this thread on the way to work this morning. Interesting experience.

I turned on the local Christian radio station and there was a woman talking. My first thought was to turn it off, which is usually what I'd do, but decided to listen for a few minutes. I thought it was probably a women's ministry of some kind. Turns out it wasn't a women's ministry, she was preaching. I ended up listening to the whole message, not out of curiosity or anything, but because it was an excellent message.

(Now, before you come down on me too hard, I turned the treble way down and the bass way up, so it sounded just like a man preaching).

She was talking about the OT sacrificial system and how those sacrifices that were offered year after year were done away and fulfilled by a better sacrifice, the sacrifice of Jesus, by whose sacrifice alone forgiveness comes. She spoke about the atonement, and how Jesus' sacrifice alone atones for our sins. She didn't say anything about asking Jesus into your heart, but spoke about repentance and putting your faith in Jesus' sacrifice. I was rejoicing as I listened. Had it been a man preaching, it was the kind of message (if you were a baptist) where you'd let a few Amens fly. (do Presby's ever let Amens fly? - (jk))

I don't know if she was a pastor/preacher 'cause at the end they just referred to her by her first name, but she sure could preach well. The fact that she had excellent preaching skills doesn't change my belief that I don't think she should be a pastor or preach from a pulpit, but it just makes me wonder.

No offence to women, but this is the first time I've heard a woman 'preach' and have anything worthwhile to say. She was different. If she were a he, it'd make sense for him to preach from a pulpit and feed his flock each Sunday. But he's not a he, he's a she, so...

At the end of the show, the announcer gave a brief summary about what she'd be preaching about this coming Monday, and said to be sure to tune in to hear her. My initial thought was, "Sure, I'd be interesting in hearing her talk about that on Monday".

I don't know if I will, but, as I said at the beginning, interesting experience.

I agree with the note about the woman in Proverbs 31 who runs a household. Abigail certainly didn't have a problem telling the men in Nabal's household what to do as she kept the household from being destroyed after the insult that Nabal paid to David.

I guess if a widow hired a man to cut her lawn then she would have to submit to his authority as to how he performed the job. That would simply be another situation among ALL spheres of authority.

"Excuse me sir but I would like you to edge my property as well."
"Quiet woman!"

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan
Deacon, Central Baptist Church, SBC

SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.

ALL spheres of life is wide...should a young man NOT submit to his mothers authority? Or the Authority of a teacher? Or college Professor on when assignments are due? (or should women not be teachers or professors at all?? if not, then MEN need to start filling those positions more).

What if the father has left the home or died, should a young man not be under his mothers authority? Or are we only speaking of adult men over a certain age who have left their parents home?

And I too am waiting for the answer to the question about women and the PB, I'll be more specific in this question..Should women NOT be allowed to be moderators on the PB as they would have some type of authority of the men who post here? But then I guess by their previous comments they have already answered the question..that it would apply here as well..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

Is it possible that Paul is not addressing men and women generically but husband and wife specifically?? (do a quick read of the Greek text and see the shift in the language. Also, a comparison with the LXX of Genesis is helpful as well).

Peace

John

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John
Evangelical Free Church, no offices held
Langhorne, PA

[B]δός δοξαν τῳ θεῳ.[/B]
[B]ιδου ποιω τα εσχατα ως τα πρωτα.
הבל הבלים[/B]

I know what I think, but I'm keeping my mouth shut until someone says I can.

I specifically mentioned that view in my post. It seems to me that that's the only way to avoid the all spheres of life view, but I wanted to hear why people think it is talking about ecclesiatical authority and not say governing authority.

I think it is noteworthy that almost all of the sound practical arguments or objections to an "All Spheres" view of authority deal with the relationship to modern employers and modern employees. Let me preface my statements by saying that I am not well read in the egalitarian-complimentarian dispute, so take my post FWIW:

I have implicitly questioned the application of the "Master -> Slave" statements by Paul to the "Employer-Employee" situations of today. I would imagine that the comparison arose because expositors normally and rightfully mine the Scriptures for all they are worth and squeeze every drop of application from them. However, I think the Employer-Employee connection is more of an edifying sub-application than an actual example of a "Master-Slave" relationship; and I think that recognition is crucial.

Once one grasps that, I think most of the emotional resistance towards All Spheres Authority and many of the strong practical arguments evaporate, because it takes Proverbs 31 economics and women hiring men for lawn care completely out of the equation. I don't know how one could call those "Master -> Slave" relationships. They are voluntary associations. If the purchaser decided not to buy land from the wife in Proverbs 31, he was under no legal obligation to do so. If the man decided not to cut the woman's lawn anymore, he has no legal or moral obligation to do so.

Employees can leave the relationship legally, morally, socially, and contractually. Wives and children don't have that option.

So I would simply argue that the three spheres of authority or government are the State, the Church, and the Family. I wouldn't include capitalistic enterprises in the endeavor.

As to the specific passage in 1 Timothy 2, I think it is noteworthy that in the beginning of the chapter Paul is giving directions for public gatherings of men, which I think we can safely assume to be gatherings of the Ecclesia. And directly following his statements about learning in silence, Paul goes into the necessary qualifications of elders and deacons. Furthermore, there is a parallel here, IMO, to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

Is this not a rather obvious parallel? In both chapters, in the context of what takes place in the public assemblies and various issues, Paul tells the women to keep silence. Were you to apply the 1 Tim. 2 passage to the husband-wife relationship, then you have the odd injunction of Paul, that the women are to learn in silence even in the home, whereas Paul tells them to ask their husbands at home, and be silent in the church.

I believe (and I'm open to correction; as I said, this isn't a much-studied topic of mine) that in 1 Tim. 2, Paul seems to be making a specific ecclesiastic application based on a general axiom. I think he could have just as easily said, theologically and methodologically, "let the wife submit to the husband", "let the men be elders in the church", or "men should rule in civil society" because "Adam was formed first, and then Eve." Because that creational, obvious, basic fact is the foundation for authority in every other area of life. Of course, I might be wrong. But the context, before and after, does seem to be speaking about the church, and not specifically the family.

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Joshua Wiseman
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

Wow, I sure let this one slip past me until now... I did not see this after my first post....

Should woman be part of the PB? Hmm, Interesting question... Personally, I do not see why not since it is a conversation or discussion...

My wife on the other hand had a completely different answer... After I joined the puritanboard and months went by, she was shocked to learn that woman were on here and debating.... To her that was radical and shocking....

I will just leave it at that for the moment.....

I would agree with you on the paragraphs I pasted into the quote....