Praying and Prophesying (NOT HEADCOVERINGS)

Romans922 · #1 (**permalink**) 12-09-2008, 10:45 AM

I have a question about the following verses: "4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved."

This is not about headcoverings or submission specifically but what is the meaning here of 'praying and prophesying?'

I have been trying to research this and there are many different responses.

You have those who believe that men and women prayed and prophesied in public worship.

You have those who believe that men and women prayed and prophesied in public worship (but Paul shows in ch. 14, that women doing this was wrong, he just doesn't tackle the issue here).

You have those who say that men and women ought to pray/prophesy (but that for most people in public worship this is done by 'praying with' or 'prophesying with' the one who is actually speaking. So more of a listening/praying or listening/prophesying). And this in context of ch. 14, would be only a man praying/prophesying and the rest of the men and all of the women doing the listening/praying-prophesying thing.

So which is it? Or are all these wrong?

HELP!

LadyFlynt · #2 (**permalink**) 12-09-2008, 11:14 AM

What is meant by "prophesying"? Some say speaking in tongues, others say preaching or teaching. I believe the definition may also include worship...something that women CAN do while in silence

Same with prayer.

Romans922 · #3 (**permalink**) 12-09-2008, 02:39 PM

Humm? if it meant tongues, the word would be used over-against tongues in chapter 14 (I believe???)

***Contra_Mundum*** · #4 (**permalink**) 12-09-2008, 03:09 PM

Andrew,
I think the women DID prophesy. We have specific examples of Phillips' daughters (Acts 21:8-9) who were prophetesses. And I do not think the passage in 1 Cor. can be taken out of the worship context. This phenomenon was also a product of prophetic fulfillment, Acts 2:18.

The special requirements noted for the circumstances was to show that the woman was under authority, and prophesying as she was bidden by the Spirit. This in no way compromises the normative fact of male-only office bearers. Prophecy (proper) ceased after the first century, so there is no reason to understand that the special circumstances of "no written NT yet" cannot account for the temporary nature of this demonstration, as in the case of the other "sign-gifts".

Romans922 · #5 (**permalink**) 12-12-2008, 11:35 AM

Would you agree with John Gill:

Quote:

1Co 11:4 - Every man praying or prophesying,.... This is to be understood of praying and prophesying in public, and not in private; and not to be restrained to the person that is the mouth of the congregation to God in prayer, or who preaches to the people in the name of God; but to be applied to every individual person that attends public worship, that joins in prayer with the minister, and hears the word preached by him, which is meant by prophesying; for not foretelling future events is here meant, but explaining the word of God, the prophecies of the Old Testament, or any part of Scripture, unless singing of psalms should rather be designed, since that is sometimes expressed by prophesying: so in 1Sa_10:5 "thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place, with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp before them, and they shall prophesy". The Targum renders it thus, ואנון משבחין, "and they shall sing praise"; upon which Kimchi observes, that it is as if it was said, their prophecy shall be שירות, "songs" and praises to God, spoken by the Holy Ghost. So in 1Sa_19:23 it is said of Saul, that he "went on and prophesied". The Targum is, he went on, ומשבח, "and praised". And again, "he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied". Targum, ושבח, "and praised", or sung praise. Once more, in 1Ch_25:1 it is said of Asaph, and others, that they "should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals"; which Kimchi explains of Asaph's singing vocally, and of his sons playing upon musical instruments.

1Co 11:5 - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth,.... Not that a woman was allowed to pray publicly in the congregation, and much less to preach or explain the word, for these things were not permitted them: see 1Co_14:34 but it designs any woman that joins in public worship with the minister in prayer, and attends on the hearing of the word preached, or sings the praises of God with the congregation, as we have seen, the word prophesying signifies, with her head uncovered.

Pergamum · #6 (**permalink**) 12-12-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Andrew,
I think the women DID prophesy. We have specific examples of Phillips' daughters (Acts 21:8-9) who were prophetesses. And I do not think the passage in 1 Cor. can be taken out of the worship context. This phenomenon was also a product of prophetic fulfillment, Acts 2:18.

The special requirements noted for the circumstances was to show that the woman was under authority, and prophesying as she was bidden by the Spirit. This in no way compromises the normative fact of male-only office bearers. Prophecy (proper) ceased after the first century, so there is no reason to understand that the special circumstances of "no written NT yet" cannot account for the temporary nature of this demonstration, as in the case of the other "sign-gifts".

So, can we say that when prophesy ceased, the need for headcovering ceased?

satz · #7 (**permalink**) 12-12-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

Would you agree with John Gill:

Quote:

1Co 11:4 - Every man praying or prophesying,.... This is to be understood of praying and prophesying in public, and not in private; and not to be restrained to the person that is the mouth of the congregation to God in prayer, or who preaches to the people in the name of God; but to be applied to every individual person that attends public worship, that joins in prayer with the minister, and hears the word preached by him, which is meant by prophesying; for not foretelling future events is here meant, but explaining the word of God, the prophecies of the Old Testament, or any part of Scripture, unless singing of psalms should rather be designed, since that is sometimes expressed by prophesying: so in 1Sa_10:5 "thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place, with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp before them, and they shall prophesy". The Targum renders it thus, ואנון משבחין, "and they shall sing praise"; upon which Kimchi observes, that it is as if it was said, their prophecy shall be שירות, "songs" and praises to God, spoken by the Holy Ghost. So in 1Sa_19:23 it is said of Saul, that he "went on and prophesied". The Targum is, he went on, ומשבח, "and praised". And again, "he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied". Targum, ושבח, "and praised", or sung praise. Once more, in 1Ch_25:1 it is said of Asaph, and others, that they "should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals"; which Kimchi explains of Asaph's singing vocally, and of his sons playing upon musical instruments.

1Co 11:5 - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth,.... Not that a woman was allowed to pray publicly in the congregation, and much less to preach or explain the word, for these things were not permitted them: see 1Co_14:34 but it designs any woman that joins in public worship with the minister in prayer, and attends on the hearing of the word preached, or sings the praises of God with the congregation, as we have seen, the word prophesying signifies, with her head uncovered.

I know I have posted this recently, but I will just give it another airing (so this will be a bit of a cut and paste job). I would respectfully disagree with Gill on this matter.

I am not sure why Gill goes back to Samuel and Chronicles in order to define “prophesy”. I think if we look at Paul’s use of the word prophecy in 1 Corinthians (12:8-10, 12:28, 13:2, 13:8-10, 14:1-5, 14:22-25, 14:29-32), as well as the general context of the Corinth being the church with the most spiritual gifts, and the operation of the special revelatory gifts during the apostle’s time, then the most logical conclusion is that the prophesy in 1 Cor 11 is special revelatory gift that operated during the apostle’s time.

I think once that is established, then from the close connection of prayer and prophecy in 1 Cor 11:4-5, we can tell that prayer is another form of inspired revelation (1 Cor 14:14-17). As I said in another post, it would make no sense for Paul to choose to regulate one inspired activity, and one normal, corporate activity. Rather, it makes better sense that both are different forms of the same activity – inspired teaching of the church during the assembly.

Again, with respect, I humbly submit that it is too simplistic to say that women could not have been prophesying and praying just by referencing 1 Cor 14:34, as Gill does.
It is an extremely strained reading of the text to say Paul was regulating an activity (women prophesying) which he later condemned. Why would he not just condemn it on the spot?

1 Cor 14:34 is not meant to be understood absolutely – otherwise women could not even sing corporately in church. Paul has already used the phase “keep silence” in the very same chapter, this time in v28. There the context is a man with the gift of tongues but no interpreter. Does the verse mean that he is totally unable to say anything at all? Or does the silence have a context – the use of his gift of tongues?

1 Cor 14:34 says "as also saith the law". And the law allowed inspired prophetesses to teach, command or speak in the presence of men, as we see in Miriam (Ex 15:20-21, Micah 6:4), Deborah (Judges 4:4-6), Huldah ( 2 Kings 22:14-16) and Anna (Luke 2:36-38).

It may be said that those were exceptions, but my point is the situation Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 11 is basically an exception too. God gave the gift of prophecy for a very short time at the infancy of the church. After the apostles had completed writing the NT, that gift went away, along with many of the other supernatural gifts.

Kevin · #8 (**permalink**) 12-12-2008, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Andrew,
I think the women DID prophesy. We have specific examples of Phillips' daughters (Acts 21:8-9) who were prophetesses. And I do not think the passage in 1 Cor. can be taken out of the worship context. This phenomenon was also a product of prophetic fulfillment, Acts 2:18.

The special requirements noted for the circumstances was to show that the woman was under authority, and prophesying as she was bidden by the Spirit. This in no way compromises the normative fact of male-only office bearers. Prophecy (proper) ceased after the first century, so there is no reason to understand that the special circumstances of "no written NT yet" cannot account for the temporary nature of this demonstration, as in the case of the other "sign-gifts".

So, can we say that when prophesy ceased, the need for headcovering ceased?

Yes.