Limited atonement and certain problem verses

steven-nemes · #1 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 05:57 PM

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4 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Cor 5

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8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

2 Peter 3

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2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What are the typical Reformed readings of texts like these?

***toddpedlar*** · #2 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 06:41 PM

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Originally Posted by steven-nemes

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4 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Cor 5

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8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

2 Peter 3

Quote:

2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What are the typical Reformed readings of texts like these?

All these need to be read in terms of the very clear teaching of Christ wherein he dies as the sacrificial lamb, and lays down His life for his sheep. It's very hard to read anything else in the New Testament in light of the teaching of John's Gospel, and understand anything else but a vicarious atonement that specifically covers the elect.

The 2 Cor 5 passage is reasonably straightforward, in that it only discusses a particular people whom Christ's love controls - that Christ died for all (of them) and was raised for them. No controversy there, imho.

2 Peter is written as is said to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us". The "any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" seems to me clearly limited to them. Peter is comforting them, letting them know that even if the Lord should come back suddenly, not one of the elect will be lost, because He is faithful, and not slack, in his promises.

The last is also fairly straightforward - prayer is commanded for all people (all sorts of people, as the context makes clear) - and the thrust of the argument is that we must pray for all sorts of people, all classes, races, etc., since the Lord will save those from all classes, races, etc. We mustn't neglect prayer for any kind of person because God is no respecter of persons, and saves all kinds.

These are just my takes on these passages quickly, but they're pretty "normal" I think as Reformed interpretations go.

charliejunfan · #3 (**permalink**) 07-15-2009, 07:05 PM

Read the Death of Death in the Death of Christ

For me to say anything else would be a waist of time

Confessor · #4 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 09:16 AM

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Originally Posted by charliejunfan

Read the Death of Death in the Death of Christ

For me to say anything else would be a waist of time

And read it slowly.

Scratch that -- read it carefully. I'm sure some people could digest Owen well without slowing down.

Michael Doyle · #5 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 09:18 AM

Owens must be read slowly by this redeemed believer.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #6 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 10:21 AM

As Todd notes, the real question is what do we do with the "pattern of sound doctrine" as the Apostle refers to it. Theology is not prooftexting but operates on the principle of integrating the whole as opposed to forcing the contradiction of the particulars. Theology is not a purely inductive approach of taking every passage in isolation from the whole.

Thus, what is clear in Hebrews 9-10 (and other passages) is the nature of Christ's Atonement. If one wants to know about Christ's atonement, you don't go to passages where the purpose of the passage is to only mention the atonement in passing and it isn't expounded upon. Each of those passages mentions the atonement but are we in a position to look at the word itself in those sentences and conclusively define what the atonement is?

Of course not.

In fact, the very use of the terms assumes there is some definition of the term in the rest of Scripture (OT teaching and the Apostolic teaching). The problem is that people bring in un-Biblical definitions and then go to prooftext verses to bolster their pre-suppositions rather than check their defintions.

Thus, even if one might be tempted to draw something universal from those verses, what could logically follow when we bring a universal nature of the atonement to Hebrews 9-10? In other words, if we have committed ourselves, from the verses cited, that Christ's atonement is truly for all flesh, now we still have to ask ourselves: "OK, let's now find what the Atonement means...."

As we go to passages like Hebrews 9-10 then, we would find that Christ's atonement is perfect for those He has atoned for. It is once-for-all, never to be repeated. Further, His High Priestly work is such that He effectually prays for His own such that they might receive the benefits of His atoning sacrifice.

Thus, armed with two facts:

1. We just assumed that the atonement was for all men.
2. We just learned that Christ's atonement perfectly saves to the uttermost.

Ergo, everyone will be saved.

Oops.

Maybe those verses need to be understood differently.

John Weathersby · #7 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steven-nemes

Quote:

4 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Cor 5

Quote:

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

2 Peter 3

Quote:

2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What are the typical Reformed readings of texts like these?

Hi,

As another poster’s points discussed (Limited atonement and certain problem verses), basic biblical Hermeneutics state we should interpret scripture in harmony with other scripture and we should interpret the unclear in light of the clear, thus the conclusions reached by a isolated eisegetical technique demonstrated (though not ascribed to) by SemperFidelis above cannot be reached; I.E.

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“1. We just assumed that the atonement was for all men.
2. We just learned that Christ's atonement perfectly saves to the uttermost.”

.
Thus, in light of the clear teaching in John 6:63&64

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“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)”

, not all are saved, so the statement in the first verse you cited, 2 Cor 5:14&15

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For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.”

cannot, in the light of the clearer passage(s) and in harmony with the whole of scripture, mean that ALL are saved. Further, a closer look at the passage reveals that verse 11 is a continuation of the verses above and not to be disassociated from them, hence therefore. Everything in verses 11-21 is because of verse 2 Cor 5:10,

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“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. “

So, because we must all appear and be judged and receive what is due, Christ died for ALL, that those who aren’t saved in his name are culpable for not making the choice for him. Col 3:1

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If then you have been raised with Christ

if not,

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“For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

, so fulfill the law completely and be judged blameless because you’re perfect (Isa 64:6, Rom 3:23), or be judged based on the Gospel, Christ died for all, however, some will be judged based upon their unbelief of it. This is my take on 2 Cor 5:14-19 under the light of the whole of scripture, I don’t see how we can accept anything other than this.

2 Pet 3:9, is the kicker,

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“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance “

however, should we be surprised that he does not revel in the fact that we are judged in our sin, rather look to Ezekiel 18:23

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“Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live”

. This does not however mean that he is powerless, in fact, all would have gone to hell, but in his sovereignty in election we see that he is the ultimate power (omnipotent) in saving some. Also, Isaiah 55:8 is helpful in ‘understanding’ this. Would we expect that the all powerful all knowing creator God would be completely understandable in a fallen finite state?
1 Tim 2:4

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who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

is the kicker too… but, are we surprised that his desire and reveling are not in punishing sin? However, is this different from what we see in scripture, Man does things that God does not ‘desire’ while he is sovereign over them, man does not choose as God has directed and there is a real consequence resulting from mans real decision (look to the children of Israel).