Romans 13 says we must be in obedience to authorities. No argument here. But what about conflicting authorities? What if the NWO demands we not homeschool our chirrens, but we have local magistrates (see John Knox) that allow us to homeschool our chirrens?

Big Government in america will soon fall. It is bloated beyond belief. It is predicated on state-worship and is basically incompetent. This will allow regions to seceede from the Empire (see the original intent of Thomas Jefferson). We will have something like the Old Confederacy.

However, let's say that The State still retains a nominal, but not functional claim to control. And then the United Nations steps in and claims jurisdiction. At this point, must the small Confederate states yield to the UN on the basis of Romans 13?

For your reading, see my refutations of state worship:
Rushdoony: Enemy of "The State"

The Hunt for Confederate Gold

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

The Rule of Law

Them Duke Boys

A Pre Manifesto

The Failure of Reformed Pluralism

Christian America and the Rule of Law

Applications of Localism

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

link
to article and video "Feds Train Clergy To "Quell Dissent" During Martial Law " using Rom 13.

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Rock Hill, SC
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte

The South will rise again!!!!!!!

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There is a big difference between the states yielding and the citizens yielding. We as Christians are called to give honor to those in authority in everything except that which contradicts the word of God.

If the State has a representative government that refuses to submit to the U.N, they obviously have the right to do so and they must lawfully harness their resources to resist such a claim on their territory. If push comes to shove and the U.N persists in claiming jurisdiction and it comes to a show of arms, practicality and wisdom must be invoked. Luke14:31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

If perchance there is a war, and the U.N wins and mandates that we not home school but send out children to public schools then we willingly have to choose to go to the gallows.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Give my people a little credit. The U.N. wins? Come on now. The UN can't even defeat African guerrilla fighters armed only with machetes. The UN is a toothless bulldog that should be laughed at.

I am not sure what the UN has to do with this, since I don't believe even the most 'statist'-minded christians believe romans 13 teaches submission to foreign governments.

No christian would deny that there is a time to obey God rather than man and defy authority. But I think many a times the definition of when defiance is both needed and allowed is cast too wide.

Incompetence or excess of control is not, as far as I can see, a legitimate reason to defy authority. A child may chafe at his or her parents' setting of an arbitrary age before which he or she can drive, but that is no reason for rebellion. No one, myself included like to be controlled, but it does seem that the only time for rebellion against authority is in matters of clear sin.

As far as homeschooling goes, I know this is a sensitive topic in reformed circles, but I am not convinced that it is a matter that requires, or allows rebelling against the government. Nor do I think it is consistent for churches to say it is, unless they already discipline each and every parent that does not homeschool.

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Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

It's a little more complicated than that. The U.S. hypothetically abdicates to the UN.

That is why I ask hard ethical questions.

I don't know what that has to do with my post.

Your last line is a red-herring fallacy.

My point, be it correct or not, was that rebellion is only allowed in matters of sin. If christians do not see non-homeschooling as sin enough to require discipline, why should they see it as enough to warrant rebellion against authority?

Your point only stands upon the assumption that *all* Christians would either see non-homeschooling as a sin. My point, and this is an insight into the Southern American mind, is the govt, the local seceeded govt, resists the outside forces. Therefore, given the Romans 13 argument now applies to those under said govt, Christians now have the right to resist. I will say the argument another way.

1.Romans 13 says Christians should obey the govt.
2. The new govt, the said seceeded govt, goes to defensive war and enlists the aid of its populace, which includes Christians,.
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Conclusion
3. Christians can wage defensive war is this context against foreign (UN) invaders.

This is a basic syllogism.

If a seceeded govt is fighting against a foreign power, what did it seceed form, and what role does this - lets call it federal govt, play in the conflict?

I ask this because while I think I agree with your logic, one point of qualification I would make is that if the states were previously legitimately under the authority of a federal power, it does not seem obvious to me that the seceeding govt would have legitimate authority over its citizens as opposed to the federal government. Or, to put it in other words, I am not sure Romans 13 would apply to mandate obedience to the seceeding government as opposed to the federal one.

Wouldn't it come down, in the end, to a discussion on the justness and biblical legitimacy of the seceession?

Doesn't matter. Paul doesn't say what kind of govt, or if lawful, etc. He just says "powers that be." If I take your logic--which I do in other cases--then I would be forced to resist this unlawful govt. Either way we are resisting govt.

I know what you are getting at. I wasn't as clear in my post, but I am using secession in a lawful sense (I can explain that later).

since the public schools in america are overtly secular and overtly anti christian, you honestly believe that it is God honoring for Christians to allow their children to be under such a system?

I do not believe the typical verses and reasoning used by homeschool proponents are enough to prove it a sin for parents to do so.

God's commandment is for parents to bring up their children in the fear and nurture of the Lord, not to homeschool them per se. Homeschool may well be the best way to go about that, but if the government, which is a God-ordained authority, were to mandate public schooling, at present I think christians should comply and do their best to counteract the negative influences.

And if it truely is a situation where christians are forced into doing so, I believe God would extend special grace to bless their efforts and prevent the children from being corrupted, in much the same way as a christian in a marriage with unbeliever (as per 1 Cor 7 where Paul tells them to stay together) can trust in God to protect him from being negatively influenced, even though being in such an intimate relationship with an unbeliever would typically be unwise.

Query: what type of school was Daniel the prophet educated in? (asks the homeschooling pastor)

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

I thought that we lived in a constitutional republic where the constitution is the governing authority of the land and the people of the United States are thereby protected by the constitution from anyone that would claim to be a representative of our government that would try to tell us anything different. Hence we are therefore permitted by the constitution to exercise our second amendment rights in this case and oppose anyone that would try to usurp our form of government. We should also not forget that our representatives swear to up hold the constitution. Therefore it would be anyone opposing the constitution in our country that are the ones in violation of Romans 13 and would therefore be the ones bringing judgment on themselves. In our form of government, representatives of the government are our servants, and so if our servants revolt against us we have every right to suppress this rebellion by any means at our disposal.

I have already warned my children that the day may come when the state tries to forcibly try to take them away from us and indoctrinate them into the religion of secular humanism, so they are prepared for the worst. I hate to think of what I would be capable of if they attempt such a thing.

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David Morrow
Faith Community Church
Kansas City, MO
http://presupposetheism.blogspot.com

Homeschooling wasn't the best example. Let's take China. Forced abortions. Do you resist now?

Yes...!

Is this a Political discussion or an exegetical discussion? If the tenor of the thread doesn't change to the issue of the Scriptures then I'm going to need to move the thread.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan

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The issue of conflicting authorities is explicitly covered in Scripture: Acts 5:29. If the state requires you to violate the 6th commandment, you are to obey God rather than man. Scripture interprets Scripture. The Scriptures (and Romans 13 in specific) say nothing about what form of government is required.

My post--sorry if it wasn't clear--was about conflicting authorities within the governmental structure. For instance, if I obey authority x I disobey authority why, yet Romans 13 only says, at a surface level reading, to be in obedience to authorities.

As to the form of government, I didn't mean to get off on that track. Have you read Dabney's essay on "Bible Republicanism?"

I don't think that was as clear as it could have been. I will try to clarifiy. I am not positing something as simple as "God vs. Government" conflicting authority. I am talking about conflicting human elements within the same government. When the Sherriff (who in the State of Louisiana is one of the highest ranking officers in the Parish) and equally legit authority X clash.

Rich:
If you want to move this thread, put it into the "Law of God" forum, since it is an ethics thread.