Death w/o Imputed Sin: Romans 5

solifide · #1 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 03:02 PM

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

A5pointer · #2 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 03:29 PM

I think you are making a mistake to use the word "imputed" in reference to the text.

solifide · #3 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 03:49 PM

The Greek word for "counted" is ellogeo, which Strongs translates as "impute".

STRONGS G1677

A5pointer · #4 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 03:57 PM

I see it is translated impute in literal translations, that does seem confusing. I am sure the answer will pop up soon. Good question.

fredtgreco · #5 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

Paul is making the point that the law pronounced at Sinai was not the beginning of Law. How do we know that? Men died before Sinai; and men die because of sin (Rom 5:12); therefore there must have been sin before Sinai (5:13). But because there is no sin imputed unless there is a law broken, there must have been Law before Sinai (5:14).

It is one way of showing that Adam's sin was a violation of God's Law. That is why "impute" is a perfectly acceptable translation (viz. NASB, KJV, Young's).

Davidius · #6 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

Paul is making the point that the law pronounced at Sinai was not the beginning of Law. How do we know that? Men died before Sinai; and men die because of sin (Rom 5:12); therefore there must have been sin before Sinai (5:13). But because there is no sin imputed unless there is a law broken, there must have been Law before Sinai (5:14).

It is one way of showing that Adam's sin was a violation of God's Law. That is why "impute" is a perfectly acceptable translation (viz. NASB, KJV, Young's).

So the clause "where there is no law" is meant to refer to a non-existent place and not all time from Adam to Moses, right? Sin is not counted where there is no law, but there was sin and death from Adam to Moses, so there must have been a law?

fredtgreco · #7 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

Paul is making the point that the law pronounced at Sinai was not the beginning of Law. How do we know that? Men died before Sinai; and men die because of sin (Rom 5:12); therefore there must have been sin before Sinai (5:13). But because there is no sin imputed unless there is a law broken, there must have been Law before Sinai (5:14).

It is one way of showing that Adam's sin was a violation of God's Law. That is why "impute" is a perfectly acceptable translation (viz. NASB, KJV, Young's).

So the clause "where there is no law" is meant to refer to a non-existent place and not all time from Adam to Moses, right? Sin is not counted where there is no law, but there was sin and death from Adam to Moses, so there must have been a law?

Exactly. Hence Calvin:

Quote:

13. For until the law, etc. This parenthesis anticipates an objection: for as there seems to be no transgression with out the law, it might have been doubted whether there were before the law any sin: that there was after the law admitted of no doubt. The question only refers to the time preceding the law. To this then he gives this answer, — that though God had not as yet denounced judgment by a written law, yet mankind were under a curse, and that from the womb; and hence that they who led a wicked and vicious life before the promulgation of the law, were by no means exempt from the condemnation of sin; for there had always been some notion of a God, to whom honor was due, and there had ever been some rule of righteousness. This view is so plain and so clear, that of itself it disproves every opposite notion.

fredtgreco · #8 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)
Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

Usually, this [to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"] is interpreted of infants who die, because of Original Sin (Adam's) even though they do not sin after the manner of Adam (i.e. by conscious , personal rebellion against God's command).

Bygracealone · #9 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

The section about sinning in the manner of Adam points to the federal nature of Adam's standing in the covenant of works. He represented all of mankind in that covenant. We're born in sin, not by anything we have done personally, but as a result of the sin of our first covenant head, Adam. His sin was imputed to us, and we sinned in him by our union to him as our head, and that sin is passed onto us by ordinary generation.

WSC 1:16 The covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity; all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression.

In Romans 5, Paul goes on to contrast Adam as our first covenant head with Christ our new head. Like original sin, our salvation isn't based upon our works, but upon the works of the last Adam, Jesus Christ; as our covenant head, His righteousness is imputed to us and we're therefore counted righteous in Christ by grace through faith in the person and work of our Savior.

solifide · #10 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 11:21 AM

Thanks for the great answers!

I'm still not sure what it means to not sin like the transgression of Adam, as mentioned in verse 14. Also, are you saying that there are two types of sin that condemn us, one from the womb and one from the law? These are just clarifications really, you guys have done admirably handling this.

North Jersey Baptist · #11 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." - Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

I need help understanding the passage in bold and the passage in italics. In bold, it is quite obvious that sin was present before the law was given to Moses, but Paul says that the sin was not imputed on the sinner if there is no law. What is Paul saying here? Also, in italics, what does it mean to sin "like the transgression of Adam?"

Paul is making the point that the law pronounced at Sinai was not the beginning of Law. How do we know that? Men died before Sinai; and men die because of sin (Rom 5:12); therefore there must have been sin before Sinai (5:13). But because there is no sin imputed unless there is a law broken, there must have been Law before Sinai (5:14).

It is one way of showing that Adam's sin was a violation of God's Law. That is why "impute" is a perfectly acceptable translation (viz. NASB, KJV, Young's).

We can point back to Genesis 3 and 4 to see sin before the codified law of Moses and the resulting penalty because of sin. Adam sinned after being told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This was a direct command from God. Because of Adam, sin was imputed and death entered the world. Cain killed Abel before "Thou shall not kill" was written on tablets of stone. God judged Cain by making the ground resistant to yielding its fruit and by causing him to be a vagrant. Adam sinned by disobeying a direct command from God, but what was Cain's sin? Cain broke God's moral law. an intuitive law written on his conscience (see Romans 1:18-20; James 4:10).

Contra_Mundum · #12 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

I'm still not sure what it means to not sin like the transgression of Adam, as mentioned in verse 14. Also, are you saying that there are two types of sin that condemn us, one from the womb and one from the law? These are just clarifications really, you guys have done admirably handling this.

You have the essential thing: Before we do anything ourselves, even the first willful sin as a little baby, we are condemned to hell. We will have none of this patronizing nonsense about "age of accountability," etc. Death is a penalty for sin, sin that we are both conceived and born in, and which we require the love and mercy of God personally displayed toward us in Christ, into whom we are given faith to believe. Age is immaterial.

We are guilty before existence by the imputation of Adam's first sin, his representative, federal act. Condemned in Adam. We are guilty, second, in our embryonic state, and continually as we come to full development, due to the sinful corruption of our whole nature. We are born sinners, "going astray from the womb." Thus ALL of our motions are by nature truly and properly SIN. So, even our repentance must be repented of.

And third, we are guilty of all the willful violations of God's holy and perfect requirements. Ignorance of the law is no excuse--not that it matters, we are already guilty of violating the laws we most clearly recognize. Sin is lawlessness.

toddpedlar · #13 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

Thanks for the great answers!

I'm still not sure what it means to not sin like the transgression of Adam, as mentioned in verse 14. Also, are you saying that there are two types of sin that condemn us, one from the womb and one from the law? These are just clarifications really, you guys have done admirably handling this.

Absolutely - infants are conceived in sin - born, bearing the sin of Adam on their souls. We are condemned both by this original sin as well as our own actual sin committed in our own persons.

Bygracealone · #14 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solifide

Thanks for the great answers!

I'm still not sure what it means to not sin like the transgression of Adam, as mentioned in verse 14. Also, are you saying that there are two types of sin that condemn us, one from the womb and one from the law? These are just clarifications really, you guys have done admirably handling this.

I believe that to not sin like the transgression of Adam means that we didn't actually eat the forbidden fruit ourselves, yet we still sinned in Adam by our union to him as our covenant head and we also suffer the same consequence of that sin.

WLC 1:22 WLC 22 Did all mankind fall in that first transgression? A. The covenant being made with Adam as a publick person, not for himself only, but for his posterity, all mankind descending from him by ordinary generation,(1) sinned in him, and fell in that first transgression.(2)

(1)Acts 17:26.
(2)Gen. 2:16,17 with Rom. 5:12-20 and with 1 Cor. 15:21,22.

Paul's point then is that even though all haven't sinned exactly as Adam did, we're still sinners by fact of our union to him and we've inherited our sinful natures from him by which we commit our own actual sins that we're guilty of as well.

W.G.T Shedd offers helpful insight when he adds:

"The relation between their [our] sin and Adam's is not that of resemblance, but of identity. Had the sin by which death came upon them been one like Adam's, there would haven been as many sins to be the cause of death, and to account for it, as there were individuals. Death would have come into the human world by millions of men, and not 'by one man' (ver. 12); and judgment would have come upon all men, to condemnation, by millions of offences, and not 'by one offence" (ver. 18)." From Shedd's commentary on Romans pg. 133.