Last evening at my house a group of us had a great discussion of 'wives' as 'women' in I Timothy 3. We talked about women deacons and our thoughts on them.

So what do you think?

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Nathan Eshelman
Grand Rapids, MI
First Reformed Presbyterian Church

PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS

First Reformed Presbyterian Church

Women deacons show a denomination's feminist agenda and will lead to women elders. That is how it played out in the C of E.

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Richard
CofE
UK

This is going to sound odd but I see deaconesses as faithful to Scripture but not necessary for Women's ministry. The leader of a women's ministry need not be a deaconess. I do believe it is necessary in some areas to have women deaconess's (what we in the ARP call "caretaker deacons") who can perform actions that men, by prudence, cannot.

As far as the "feminist" call, one need look no further than the RPCNA for proof that it is not always the case, though I grant likely.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

I voted "other" because I don't know.

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DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

No one has ever been able, nor will they be, to explain how someone can be set apart to lead in an area of ministry (mercy and service) without having authority (contra to 1 Tim 2:12). If someone can do that ministry without authority, they don't need ordination.

It is a no brainer.

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

I voted:

"Women deacons show a denomination's feminist agenda and will lead to women elders"

While this may not always be the case, church history is full of examples of "denominational slides" where this has been the result. So it seems to be the rule and not the exception....

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Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

I see deaconesses as biblical and as such whether it is a slippery slope or not is irrelevant.

Feminism is wrong, but then again so are attempts to deprive women on there God given privilidges in case it may intrude on positions undertaken by men.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

#3
I think it can be #2, but not necessarily. Being unbiblical, it ought to be rejected.

There is a hankering after a specific kind of recognition in ministry that drives this desire. The desire exists, ergo the Bible must be read in such a way that will open the way to fulfill that desire.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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Feminism is unbiblical.

Deaconesses are unbiblical.

Either way, it is unbiblical!!

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Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

Is 'unbiblical' the right word? The Bible never really addresses the issue at all. It seems to assume that 'official' deacons shall be men. I am not in support of deaconesses but am uncomfortable with the word 'unbiblical'. Perhaps I need to get over it.

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.

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C. Gorsuch
Glencullen Baptist
Portland, Oregon

I did speak quickly on this. But here is the point. It is not the service itself that is the issue. All Christians are called to mercy ministry. All Christians are called to service. But Acts 6 presumes that someone is directing that effort. The person who directs is called a deacon. If the deacon did not have authority over those involved in the mercy ministry, we would have to suppose that no one but deacons could perform mercy ministry. Otherwise, why even have deacons?

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Women are not given the office of deacon in the Scripture. However, there is evidence that women served in a role very similar to that of the male deacons in the church. While I believe women do not have the authoritative role in the church, I do think it is a grave error to assume that because women have no authority in that area that they are somehow incapable of serving in the church or that they shouldn't be serving in the church.

Too often leaders who are very correct in saying that women have no leadership role in the church make the mistake of cutting women out of ministry all together. IMHO that is as sinful as a woman serving as a pastor.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

I definitely hear you on that. Women should be in ministry - especially mercy ministry. All Christians should. Just not everyone should be ordained.

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Female deacons are not permitted by scripture, whether the desire for them is a sign of feminism or not is immaterial to me. Benjamite priests were also not permitted by scripture, would their desire to have them been called "benjamitism", or just the effects of the fallen nature and its proclivity for rebellion?

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Well the way I had read Acts 6 previously was that it saying says that since the needy Greeks were getting the short end of the stick, all the disciples, both Jew and Greek were to gather together. The people were given the authority by the apostles to choose who would be their servants and serve them faithfully and fairly, since the apostles judged it to not be right that they themselves should wait tables at the expense of preaching the word and prayer. It sounded to me like the people tell the deacons who it is that needs something, and the deacons obey them. But... It does speak about management in the requirements of deacons elsewhere in scripture, so I think I can see what you were referring to. As far as the question you asked ("Otherwise, why even have deacons?") the way I would first read that is literally: Why have servants? or Why have table waiters? My first reaction is that the name implies lack of authority, not the fact of authority. They were originally to serve those who needed food. But I think I can now see how the other places where they are mentioned their duties encompass more than this. Thanks for your reply. Like I said, I just hadn't really thought about it much.

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C. Gorsuch
Glencullen Baptist
Portland, Oregon

I answered "other." Female deacons are unbiblical, period. See Fred's post for my reasons.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.

Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.

It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.

In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.

There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.

It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.

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Arlene
PCA
North Carolina
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.

I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?

Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.

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Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

The "correct" reply is "women deacons are biblical, and sometimes expedient. However cultural conditions may require the avoidence of this office for a brief time."

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB