Chastisement and death

Richard Tallach · #1 (**permalink**) 08-21-2009, 12:24 PM

I Corinthians 11:29-30

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgement to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Presumably this didn't just apply to the "supernatural" Apostolic period, but also to ourselves? Do any Cessationists believe that this ceased?

What kind of sins lead to a chastisement as severe as physical death?

How do we know if trouble in our lives is chastisement for sin, or just a process of honing such that Job faced?

***toddpedlar*** · #2 (**permalink**) 08-21-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

I Corinthians 11:29-30

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgement to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Presumably this didn't just apply to the "supernatural" Apostolic period, but also to ourselves? Do any Cessationists believe that this ceased?

What kind of sins lead to a chastisement as severe as physical death?

How do we know if trouble in our lives is chastisement for sin, or just a process of honing such that Job faced?

What's the difference between chastisement for sin and "honing"?

Richard Tallach · #3 (**permalink**) 08-21-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote from Todd
What's the difference between chastisement for sin and "honing"?

Possibly the difference between why Job's friends thought he was suffering, for some specific and particularly wicked sin, and one of the real reasons he suffered, which seems to be not for any sin in particular, but to bring him on in his spiritual development and maturity.

I don't know if that is a valid distinction, but how else would the case of Job be looked at. King David, however, experienced chastisement because he had been bad. Job hadn't been bad.

E.g.

Then Job answered the LORD and said,"Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth.Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add nothing more." (Job 40:3-5)

Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.''(Job 42:1-6)

Richard Tallach · #4 (**permalink**) 09-24-2009, 03:40 PM

Bump.

Was Job chastised for sin or does there have to be a particular sin in view for suffering to be chastisement?

What do we call the suffering of Christians who are not being afflicted for any particular sin - if not chastisement?

How do you tell the difference between chastisement for sin or not?

In what way do all Christians endure chastisement?

Quote:

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. (Hebrews 12:3-13, KJV)

Brad · #5 (**permalink**) 09-24-2009, 08:51 PM

Job endured suffering for the glory of God.

It is erroneous to assume that all suffering endured by the elect is chastisement for sin. That was an error for which Job's friends were rebuked.

It is also erroneous to assume there was ever a human who was not deserving of all Job suffered and infinitely more - except One - and that was an error Job came to understand.

Brian Withnell · #6 (**permalink**) 09-24-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Bump.

Was Job chastised for sin or does there have to be a particular sin in view for suffering to be chastisement?

What do we call the suffering of Christians who are not being afflicted for any particular sin - if not chastisement?

How do you tell the difference between chastisement for sin or not?

In what way do all Christians endure chastisement?

Quote:

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. (Hebrews 12:3-13, KJV)

Not all suffering is suffering for sin ... consider 1 Peter. Chapter 2:19, 20 speaks of suffering unjustly, suffering for doing what is right. The same is true in 4:12 and following. In light of these subsequent verses, we can read more surely that the suffering of 1:6 is not for sin, but is suffering for righteousness sake with the end that our faith is shown to be genuine.

And while this is suffering for righteousness, I would think we can suffer not for our sin or chastisement, but because of sin in the world which causes the general suffering of mankind. (While God is sovereign over all things, and nothing happens "by chance" that does not mean that natural disasters are chastisement for those that suffer.)