1 Timothy 2:4 Understanding "ALL"

caddy · #1 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 08:32 AM

This text is often used, wrongly, to understand that ALL will eventually be saved. Does anyone have any good resources, other than what I already have from Monergism and it's Online Commentaries?

Jerusalem Blade · #2 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 08:55 AM

There's a little 35-page booklet I have (possibly from Gospel Mission -- Montana?) titled, Calvin v. Hyper-Spurgeonism, which has a sermon by Calvin in it, "All Men". They state it can be found in "The 1579 edition of John Calvin's Sermons on Timothy and Titus [which were] published in facsimile format [sixteenth century typeface] by The Banner of Truth Trust", although the stand-alone version is in modern typeface. It also contains a couple of essays, plus more testimonies from Calvin and one from Augustine.

It was published in 1997 by Berith Publications, 6 Orchard Road, LEWES, E. Sussex, England [no ISBN].

Steve

caddy · #3 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 09:01 AM

But not online anywhere Right Steve?

Thanks for the info by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusalem Blade

There's a little 35-page booklet I have (possibly from Gospel Mission -- Montana?) titled, Calvin v. Hyper-Spurgeonism, which has a sermon by Calvin in it, "All Men". They state it can be found in "The 1579 edition of John Calvin's Sermons on Timothy and Titus [which were] published in facsimile format [sixteenth century typeface] by The Banner of Truth Trust", although the stand-alone version is in modern typeface. It also contains a couple of essays, plus more testimonies from Calvin and one from Augustine.

It was published in 1997 by Berith Publications, 6 Orchard Road, LEWES, E. Sussex, England [no ISBN].

Steve

A5pointer · #4 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 09:23 AM

The historical understanding has been that the "all" is to be understood as "all kinds" even the kings and rulers that are to be prayed for. These kings would have been thought to be enemies thus not possibly in per view of God's salvation.

caddy · #5 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 10:16 AM

^
Absolutely

caddy · #6 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 10:25 AM

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm

A5pointer · #7 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm

Do we agree with spuregeon?

AV1611 · #8 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

This text is often used, wrongly, to understand that ALL will eventually be saved. Does anyone have any good resources, other than what I already have from Monergism and it's Online Commentaries?

Have you this?

AV1611 · #9 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Do we agree with spuregeon?

I do not.

caddy · #10 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 11:41 AM

I just finished reading about 3/4 of the Spurgeon piece. Yes, I agree with it, but it does NOT seem to point out the context of "ALL" in his piece. In other words, he is weak on what the text is saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Do we agree with spuregeon?

caddy · #11 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 11:43 AM

Thanks AV1611. Reading it now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Have you this?

AV1611 · #12 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

Thanks AV1611. Reading it now.

You will probably already have John Owen but just in case:

John Owen teaches “That all or all men do not always comprehend all and every man that were, are, or shall be, may be made apparent by near five hundred instances from the Scripture. Taking, then, all and all men distributively, for some of all sorts, we grant the whole; taking them collectively, for all of all sorts, we deny the minor, — namely, that God will have them all to be saved. To make our denial of this appear to be an evident truth, and agreeable to the mind of the Holy Ghost in this place, two things must be considered:— 1. What is that will of God here mentioned, whereby he willeth all to be saved. 2. Who are the all of whom the apostle is in this place treating.
1. The will of God is usually distinguished into his will intending and his will commanding; or rather, that word is used in reference unto God in this twofold notion, — (1.) For his purpose, what he will do; (2.) For his approbation of what we do, with his command thereof. Let now our opposers take their option in whether signification the will of God shall be here understood, or how he willeth the salvation of all.

First, If they say he doth it “voluntate signi,” with his will commanding, requiring, approving, then the sense of the words is this:— “God commandeth all men to use the means whereby they may obtain the end, or salvation, the performance whereof is acceptable to God in any or all;” and so it is the same with that of the apostle in another place, “God commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” Now, if this be the way whereby God willeth the salvation of all here mentioned, then certainly those all can possibly be no more than to whom he granteth and revealeth the means of grace; which are indeed a great many, but yet not the one hundredth part of the posterity of Adam. Besides, taking God’s willing the salvation of men in this sense, we deny the sequel of the first proposition, — namely, that Christ died for as many as God thus willeth should be saved. The foundation of God’s command unto men to use the means granted them is not Christ’s dying for them in particular, but the connection which himself, by his decree, hath fixed between these two things, faith and salvation; the death of Christ being abundantly sufficient for the holding out of that connection unto all, there being enough in it to save all believers.

Secondly, If the will of God be taken for his efficacious will, the will of his purpose and good pleasure (as truly to me it seems exceedingly evident that that is here intended, because the will of God is made the ground and bottom of our supplications; as if in these our prayers we should say only, “Thy will be done,” — which is to have them all to be saved: now, we have a promise to receive of God “whatsoever we ask according to his will,” 1 John iii. 22, v. 14; and therefore this will of God, which is here proposed as the ground of our prayers, must needs be his effectual or rather efficacious will, which is always accomplished); — if it be, I say, thus taken, then certainly it must be fulfilled, and all those saved whom he would have saved; for whatsoever God can do and will do, that shall certainly come to pass and be effected. That God can save all (not considering his decree) none doubts; and that he will save all it is here affirmed: therefore, if these all here be all and every one, all and every one shall certainly be saved. “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die.” “Who hath resisted God’s will?” Rom. ix. 19. “He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased,” Ps. cxv. 3. “He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth,” Dan. iv. 35. If all, then, here be to be understood of all men universally, one of these two things must of necessity follow:— either that God faileth of his purpose and intention, or else that all men universally shall be saved; which puts us upon the second thing considerable in the words, namely, who are meant by all men in this place.

2. By all men the apostle here intendeth all sorts of men indefinitely living under the gospel, or in these latter times, under the enlarged dispensation of the means of grace…The scope of the apostle, treating of the amplitude, enlargement, and extent of grace, in the outward administration thereof, under the gospel, will not suffer it to be denied. This he lays down as a foundation of our praying for all, — because the means of grace and the habitation of the church is now no longer confined to the narrow bounds of one nation, but promiscuously and indefinitely extended unto all people, tongues, and languages; and to all sorts of men amongst them, high and low, rich and poor, one with another. We say, then, that by the words all men are here intended only of all sorts of men, suitable to the purpose of the apostle, which was to show that all external difference between the sons of men is now taken away…”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.i.x.iv.html

caddy · #13 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 02:01 PM

Yes, but thanks for posting this portion online. That's exactly what I need. No need to retype now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

You will probably already have John Owen but just in case:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.i.x.iv.html

caddy · #14 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 02:45 PM

The Christian’s Reasonable Service
Wilhelmus à Brakel

a Brakel, W. 1992; Published in electronic form by Christian Classics Foundation, 1996. The Christian's reasonable service, Volumes 1 and 2 : In which Divine truths concerning the covenant of grace are expounded, defended against opposing parties, and their practice advocated as well as The administration of this covenant in the Old and New Testaments (electronic ed. of the first publication in the English language, based on the 3rd edition of the original Dutch work.). Soli Deo Gloria Publications: Morgan PA

Objection #3: “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all” ( Rom. 11:32 ); “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” ( Rom. 5:18 ); “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” ( 1 Cor. 15:22 ); “And that He died for all . . .” ( 2 Cor. 5:15 ); “Who will have all men to be saved.. . . Who gave Himself a ransom for all . . .” ( 1 Tim. 2:4 , 6 ); “. . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” ( 2 Pet. 3:9 ).
Answer: Our response to each of these texts can be found in chapter 22. The word “all” does not refer to all men who have existed, do exist, and will exist, but rather to all those who are under discussion in each individual text. Romans 5:18 speaks of all those who are in Christ, who will be the recipients of justification unto life. Romans 11:32 refers to the rejection and the restoration or repentance of the Jewish nation. 1 Corinthians 15:22 speaks of all who will be made alive in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:15 makes mention of all believers who have died to sin and are partakers of spiritual life. In 1 Timothy 2:4–6 , the reference is to all sorts of men, which is evident in verse 2 —all sorts of men rather than all men will come to the knowledge of the truth. Whatever God has decreed shall certainly come to pass and whatever does not occur is not according to the will of God’s decree. Thus, all men are not saved, but only those in whose stead Christ has been given as a ransom. 2 Peter 3:9 refers to the elect who will come to repentance and who must first be gathered in before the world perishes. It also makes mention of the command and the declaration of the gospel which commands everyone who hears it to repent, speaking of both God’s pleasure and displeasure relative to repentance or the lack of it.

a Brakel, W. 1992; Published in electronic form by Christian Classics Foundation, 1996. The Christian's reasonable service, Volumes 1 and 2 : In which Divine truths concerning the covenant of grace are expounded, defended against opposing parties, and their practice advocated as well as The administration of this covenant in the Old and New Testaments (electronic ed. of the first publication in the English language, based on the 3rd edition of the original Dutch work.). Soli Deo Gloria Publications: Morgan PA

VirginiaHuguenot · #15 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 02:52 PM

You might want to check out this thread.

Here are a few additional resources:

Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Faith, has a section on the "Universalistic Passages," including 1 Tim. 2.4.

Gary D. Long, An Exegetical Study of 1Timothy 2:4 (A Doctrinal Study on the Extent of the Atonement).

Mitch Cervinka, An Exposition of 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

Arthur Dent, The Plain Man's Pathway to Heaven, p. 210:

Quote:

Asunetus: Yea, but the scripture saith, "God will have all men saved." [1 Tim 2:4]

Theologus: That is not meant of every particular man, but of all sorts some. Some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, some high, some low, etc.

John Brown of Haddington, Systematic Theology, Book V, Chap. 1, p. 341:

Quote:

Objection I. "The call of the gospel reaches all men, Titus 2:11; 1 Tim 2:4; Col 1:6; Mark 16:15; Luke 2:10." Answer. It is extended to men of all sorts, Jews and Gentiles, and of all ranks, poor or rich, but not to every particular person, Rev 5:9; Rev 7:9. A warrant to preach it every where will not prove that it is every where preached.

Thomas Manton, Exposition of Isaiah 53:4, Works of Thomas Manton, Vol. 3, p. 265:

Quote:

But how shall I look upon this as a faithful saying, that Christ came to die for my sins? Is not that to believe a lie, suppose I be a reprobate?

Ans. [1.] The word of God excludeth none but those that exclude themselves. We are to go to God's revealed will; that we are bound to believe, though in his secret will it should not be truth. As Abraham was bound to believe, after God's command, that Isaac should die under his hand, though God had otherwise purposed; for you know it is said, 1 Tim 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." God showeth them that the promulgation of the gospel is general.

Christopher Ness, An Antiodote to Arminianism:

Quote:

Objection 2. The words “all” and “every,” often used in Scripture, must be taken universally.

Answer:
1. “All” and “every” must not be taken for a universal affirmative collectively, and for every man individually, in the common quoted scriptures; but distributively, as in Mt 9:35, where we are told that Christ went about healing every sickness and every disease among the people: that is, any and every kind of disease, for Christ healed not every disease individually. Also in Col 1:28, where “every” is taken distributively three times over, and must be restricted to those to whom Paul preached.

2. “All” in 1Ti 2:4, cannot be taken for every man individually, since it is not the will of God that all men in this large sense should be saved: for it is His will that some men should be damned, and that very justly, for their sins and transgressions. Unto some men it will be said, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.” If God willeth all men to be saved, then all men will be saved, for “He (God) doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth” (Da 4:35). God faileth not, He cannot be disappointed in His own will, for He worketh all things after the counsel of it. Again, in Heb 2:9, Jesus is said to “taste death for every [man];” it is in the very next verse restricted to “sons brought to glory,” and in Heb 2:11, to “sanctified” ones. 1Ti 2:6 (“who gave Himself a ransom for all”) is rendered in the parallel text in Tit 2:14, “who gave Himself for us.” Now, who are the persons called “us” in this text? Are they not particularized as “redeemed from all iniquity, purified and made a peculiar people?” For “all” of this description Christ gave Himself a ransom, and for none else.

The prophet David saith, “All men are liars;” take the word strictly, and he must be a liar that saith so.

caddy · #16 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 02:57 PM

^
Excellent ! I knew if you saw this you'd come through with something Andrew. Thanks Man....!

North Jersey Baptist · #17 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Do we agree with spuregeon?

I agree with Spurgeon on this passage. To quote an oft used colloquialism, "It is what it is."

North Jersey Baptist · #18 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

The prophet David saith, “All men are liars;” take the word strictly, and he must be a liar that saith so.

This statement fails to differentiate between the act of lying and being a liar by nature. Paul writes:

Romans 3:4 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, And mightest prevail when Thou art judged."

One can be a liar by nature and still be able to utter a truthful statement. It is similar to total depravity. Man is depraved, but that does not mean he always acts in the extreme of his depravity.

caddy · #19 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 04:50 PM

Thanks Bill

Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

This statement fails to differentiate between the act of lying and being a liar by nature. Paul writes:

Romans 3:4 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, And mightest prevail when Thou art judged."

One can be a liar by nature and still be able to utter a truthful statement. It is similar to total depravity. Man is depraved, but that does not mean he always acts in the extreme of his depravity.

A5pointer · #20 (**permalink**) 04-30-2007, 04:56 PM

There are plenty of examples we cerainly don't believe ALL will be raised in Christ as Paul says in 1 Cor. 15.