So...It makes sense, but am I wrong?

blhowes · #1 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 06:40 PM

I've been enjoying myself this week. I only had to work on Monday, and am taking the rest of the week off. Its nice having some time off.

This afternoon I was reading the first couple chapters of John. When I got to John 3, I kind of parked there and started looking at those verses around John 3:16. I'm paraphasing my impression of how this passage is commonly taught, but its like "God loved the world so much, they were just so special, that He sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Although He loves everybody, He wouldn't impose His will on them. So, if anybody believes, they'll be saved. The choice is up to them".

I wanted to stop and focus on that passage and solidify in my mind what I believe the passage teaches and why. I don't think it teaches what my paraphrase teaches, but I want to make myself more convinced.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I continue looking, but here's one that just popped into my mind. Its regarding the word "so" in John 3:16.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

My impression from some is that its kind of warm/cozy thing - God loves the world sooooo much, that...

The word "For" at the beginning of the verse connects the verse to the previous verse, in the same as in verses 17 and 20. Its a continuation of what was being said in the previous verse.

Here's where my thought about the word "so" came in that I wanted to ask about. I don't recall ever hearing this interpretation of the word, so admittedly I'm probably wrong. I was just wondering if somebody could tell me why its wrong.

Here's what it says about the word "so"
G3779
houtō
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

What makes sense to me is that the word "so", like the word "For", is referring to the previous verse. Similarly to how God had Moses lift up the serpent in the wilderness and whoever believed didn't perish, in the same way God loved the world and gave his son.

As I said, I don't recall the word "so" in that passage being interpretted that way, so I take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Does/could the word "so" be referring to the previous passage, instead of describing how much God loved the world?

**Prufrock** · #2 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 06:47 PM

You're on to something very good there -- the "so" has traditionally been interpreted as a "thus" (sic), not a "so much." Christ being given for the world (i.e., Jews and Gentiles) is being compared to the bronze serpent being given for the Jews to deliver them.

blhowes · #3 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prufrock

You're on to something very good there -- the "so" has traditionally been interpreted as a "thus" (sic), not a "so much." Christ being given for the world (i.e., Jews and Gentiles) is being compared to the bronze serpent being given for the Jews to deliver them.

I'm a little surprised by your response, since I'd never heard it interpretted that way before (I assumed I was wrong). Do you know offhand of any commentators/writers who interpret it that way?

blhowes · #4 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 09:01 PM

Is this a correct way to tie together the passage about Moses and the serpent with the John 3 passage?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loved the children of Israel, and gave Moses a serpent to lift up, that whosoever believed and looked to the serpent, wouldn't die, but lived.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
God didn't send the serpent into Israel to condemn them, but that they might be delivered from the effects of the serpent bite.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who believed and looked to the serpent, didn't suffer the consequences of the serpent bite, but lived. Those who didn't believe and didn't look to the serpent, already had been bitten by a serpent and therefore died, because they didn't believe God and look to the serpent.

Is it true that Jesus isn't really talking about why some believed (as in either some chose to believe or God changed their heart so they believed) so much as He's just 'stating some facts'.

God loved the world and sent Jesus. Some believe(d) and lived, others didn't/don't believe and die.
God loved Israel and sent a serpent so that they might live. Some looked and lived, others didn't look and died.

Reformed Rush · #5 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

Is this a correct way to tie together the passage about Moses and the serpent with the John 3 passage?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loved the children of Israel, and gave Moses a serpent to lift up, that whosoever believed and looked to the serpent, wouldn't die, but lived.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
God didn't send the serpent into Israel to condemn them, but that they might be delivered from the effects of the serpent bite.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who believed and looked to the serpent, didn't suffer the consequences of the serpent bite, but lived. Those who didn't believe and didn't look to the serpent, already had been bitten by a serpent and therefore died, because they didn't believe God and look to the serpent.

Is it true that Jesus isn't really talking about why some believed (as in either some chose to believe or God changed their heart so they believed) so much as He's just 'stating some facts'.

God loved the world and sent Jesus. Some believe(d) and lived, others didn't/don't believe and die.
God loved Israel and sent a serpent so that they might live. Some looked and lived, others didn't look and died.

Might not the overall comparison between the serpent being lifted up by Moses to counter-act the "sting of death," (John 3:14-15) with Christ being lifted up to reverse the effects of sin, have to do with the fact that both gracious acts on the part of God, were never intended, nor were ever meant to achieve universal salvation (nationally or globally); the reason given and explained in the concluding verses:

John 3:18-21

Rather, the serpent lifted up saved not all, but many, and Christ lifted up saved many, but not all. According to the spiritual principle of Isaiah 26:12:

"Let grace be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly and will not behold the majesty of the Lord."

SolaScriptura · #6 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 11:02 PM

Regarding John 3:16...

"For God so loved the world...."

The "so" can indicate the extent or degree of God's love for the world or it can indicate the manner in which God loved the world.

Both the NET and the HCSB - two modern translations - translate the "so" to refer to the manner of God's love... Their "versions" of John 3:16 are almost identical.

The NET:

Quote:

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

The HCSB:

Quote:

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Incidentally, this reading (I believe it is the correct one) makes John 3:16 virtually synonymous with Rom 5:8.

rbcbob · #7 (**permalink**) 07-02-2009, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

I've been enjoying myself this week. I only had to work on Monday, and am taking the rest of the week off. Its nice having some time off.

This afternoon I was reading the first couple chapters of John. When I got to John 3, I kind of parked there and started looking at those verses around John 3:16. I'm paraphasing my impression of how this passage is commonly taught, but its like "God loved the world so much, they were just so special, that He sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Although He loves everybody, He wouldn't impose His will on them. So, if anybody believes, they'll be saved. The choice is up to them".

I wanted to stop and focus on that passage and solidify in my mind what I believe the passage teaches and why. I don't think it teaches what my paraphrase teaches, but I want to make myself more convinced.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I continue looking, but here's one that just popped into my mind. Its regarding the word "so" in John 3:16.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

My impression from some is that its kind of warm/cozy thing - God loves the world sooooo much, that...

The word "For" at the beginning of the verse connects the verse to the previous verse, in the same as in verses 17 and 20. Its a continuation of what was being said in the previous verse.

Here's where my thought about the word "so" came in that I wanted to ask about. I don't recall ever hearing this interpretation of the word, so admittedly I'm probably wrong. I was just wondering if somebody could tell me why its wrong.

Here's what it says about the word "so"
G3779
houtō
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

What makes sense to me is that the word "so", like the word "For", is referring to the previous verse. Similarly to how God had Moses lift up the serpent in the wilderness and whoever believed didn't perish, in the same way God loved the world and gave his son.

As I said, I don't recall the word "so" in that passage being interpretted that way, so I take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Does/could the word "so" be referring to the previous passage, instead of describing how much God loved the world?

I arrived at a similar conclusion.

blhowes · #8 (**permalink**) 07-03-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbcbob

I arrived at a similar conclusion.

Thanks. That was interesting reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbcbob

Loved Why? in order that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here too the English translation is somewhat lacking. The word “whoever” is meant to translate a phrase in the Greek which is in other places rendered “everyone who”.

You might say “what’s the difference”? The difference is that “whoever” is an indefinite pronoun and means anyone and everyone whether or not there are many or none at all!

The words in the original phrase mean literally “everyone who” which is quite a definite expression as you can easily see in John 3:8__

I don't know Greek, so I was wondering if both ideas might be in the Greek, as in "that everyone (anyone and everyone) who believes". From God's perspective, He knows exactly who it is. For ours, it could be anybody.

-----Added 7/3/2009 at 06:15:41 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

Incidentally, this reading (I believe it is the correct one) makes John 3:16 virtually synonymous with Rom 5:8.

Just wondering, is that because of how the Greek is structured in John 3:16, or because of the weight of the testimony of the rest of scripture?

I ask because I'm just curious how strong of an argument can be made from just the Greek itself.

-----Added 7/3/2009 at 06:25:34 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed Rush

Might not the overall comparison between the serpent being lifted up by Moses to counter-act the "sting of death," (John 3:14-15) with Christ being lifted up to reverse the effects of sin, have to do with the fact that both gracious acts on the part of God, were never intended, nor were ever meant to achieve universal salvation (nationally or globally); the reason given and explained in the concluding verses:

John 3:18-21

Rather, the serpent lifted up saved not all, but many, and Christ lifted up saved many, but not all. According to the spiritual principle of Isaiah 26:12:

"Let grace be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly and will not behold the majesty of the Lord."

I wonder how far its safe to carry the analogy between the two. Did God choose which Israelites would look up to the serpent in the same way He chooses which in the world believe in Jesus. Some (those who looked) obviously had faith to do what intuitively made no sense (look at a serpent to be healed, after you've been bitten and are still in the midst of the serpents).

Carolyn · #9 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 08:43 AM

The word "so" is also used in English to mean "in that way". However, I have mostly run across it in older materials. Here is one way it could be used currently,

"May I have the last brownie?"
"Please, do so."

It is pretty stilted.

This was interesting to contemplate. I hadn't realized that people were reading "so" in the passage as an intensifier. Thank you for posting your thoughts.

Puritan Sailor · #10 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

What makes sense to me is that the word "so", like the word "For", is referring to the previous verse. Similarly to how God had Moses lift up the serpent in the wilderness and whoever believed didn't perish, in the same way God loved the world and gave his son.

As I said, I don't recall the word "so" in that passage being interpretted that way, so I take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Does/could the word "so" be referring to the previous passage, instead of describing how much God loved the world?

Your getting there Bob. It's building on Moses lifting up the serpent. That's the picture of how God shows his love to the world. He offers his son in the same manner that Moses offered the serpent, offering his Son to the world as the only Savior. Look to him and you will be saved, reject him and you remain condemned.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #11 (**permalink**) 07-04-2009, 09:52 AM

At the very least your study reflects the Truth that you cannot take a verse in isolation from the rest of the Scriptures and you're doing the kind of work that is necessary to determine what Christ was trying to communicate. I agree that John 3:16 basically explains 3:14-15 and only a Dispensationalist would also miss the significance to the fact that the Congregation in the desert was to look in faith to Christ for salvation. I think this is one reason why Christ reproves Nicodemus because he's a teacher in Israel and doesn't understand the significant of OT types that pointed to Christ and the need for re-birth.