I have been trying to get at the heart of the question of why Presbyterians so doggedly pray "forgive us our debts" when everyone else prays "forgive us our trespasses."

I've come acrosss some theories on the subject (two of which sound like sanctified urban legends to me):

1. It was pure Scottish stubborness. The English prayed "forgive us our trespasses" so praying "debts" was just a way to stick it to the English.

2. The Scotts were often debtors to the English (who were the landholders), so their preference reflected their situation.

3. The Scotts in their uber-animosity towards both the English (seems a common thread) and Catholics, deliberately chose not to use words found in the Book of Common prayer, which they deemed popish.

Anyone know the actual skinny on the subject?

__________________
Rev. R. Kevin Carroll
Pastor Elect
Covenant Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Wheat Ridge, CO
Blog: Reformed and Loving It

We just quote from Matthew 6 in the KJV, which has debt and debtors.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Don't know but did you want us to pray for the answer since you put your thread under the prayer forum?

-----Added 9/16/2009 at 05:29:00 EST-----

Well, I meditated on this and was led to tell you that the Scots had it right bc of their superior knowledge in most everything......I'm Scottish/Irish....I know these things.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

@ Josh: Yes, I know, I'm more interested in the "why" of it all.

@ Sarah: You crack me up on a regular basis!

Kevin,

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Wouldn't they have just been quoting the KJV or the Geneva Bible? Forgive my density, here.

"debts" comes from Wycliffe's translation; "trespasses" from Tyndale's. The Book of Common Prayer used "trespasses", and the King James used "debts".

Debts or Trespasses?

__________________
Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Renamed for better searching and moved to more appropriate forum.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Re: new thread title

Maybe "Praying About Trespasses or Debts?" would be better.
Having enough of both on my own, I pray neither for trespasses or debts!

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In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham,
BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
------------
"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -

When I was a wee lad I learned it with debts, I first heard trespasses when I was a teenager

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Perhaps I too am dense regarding the subject, but why would it be significant to use one word as opposed to the other? Is there a theological impact that I am failing to see?

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James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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I don't think this is a uniquely Presbyterian practice. As a Baptist, I know "debts" is the word employed when Baptist recite the Lord's Prayer (and sometimes hang it on the sanctuary wall). Why? That's how the King James says it. I don't think its any more complicated than that.

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C. M. Sheffield - Pastor
Smith Street Baptist Church
Vidalia, Georgia
www.sacredsimplicity.org

I too would imagine it's probably from the KJV. No need to automatically blame the oppressed Scots.

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Donnie MacLeod
Crossroads Presbyterian Fellowship (PCA), Maplewood, MO
MDiv Student Covenant Theological Seminary

You filled my heart with greater joy
than others may have found
As they rejoiced at harvest time,
when grain and wine abound.Ps 4:7, Sing Psalms 2003

I always thought it was determined by the Bible translation predominant in the particular church. I didn't know there was a denominational distinction.

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Patrick
MDiv, RTS Jackson
Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
"Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

Yes, there is a clear denominational distinction between Anglicans/Piskies (trespasses) and Presbys (Debts).

And the urban legend is that it was caused by the English gentry being concerned about their land, and one of the greatest sins being trespassing and poaching, and the Scots being tight with their money and being considering failure to repay a debt to be a great sin.

I think the actual answer is as stated above - choice of verses and translations.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Yes, but the KJV uses trespasses as well in Luke 11.

-----Added 9/17/2009 at 12:10:39 EST-----

So bottom line, human tradition?

Why not? Don't you know that the Scots are the root of all evil?

I grew up on "debts" in the Baptist church but our current senior pastor uses "trespasses." Since I'm guilty on both scores, either word works for my wretched soul.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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I read somewhere that Jesus spoke Aramaic and debt and sin are the same word in Aramaic.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Not so brother, Note:

So, "sins" and "indebted" are the words used here.

The word "debt" is true to the Greek text. I am probably not answering the question, but here is the original Greek text:


καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·

The definition of ὀφειλήματα according to Louw-Nida is to release a person from the obligation of repaying what is owed - 'to cancel a debt, to forgive a debt.

__________________
Jeff Wyman
Man Under Care
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary

"Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." - Isaiah 45:22 (ESV)

No, I don't think so. And for that matter, apparently neither did Christ. In Matthew 6 our Lord used the word for "debt" in the pattern prayer, but immediately applied it to what was translated in the KJV as "trespasses."

Mat 6:12: And forgive us our debts (ὀφειλήματα--opheilēmata), as we forgive our debtors.

Mat 6:14-15: For if ye forgive men their trespasses(παραπτώματα--paraptōmata), your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

__________________
Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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I grew up Catholic-ish, and we said "Trespasses." (Actually, then I grew up Baptist-ish, and we also used trespasses. I still have to think about what to say next when praying in presby churches or while teaching my son.

I don't know theologically which is more accurate, but the ESV translates it to debts, and that's what Bible our church uses, so I think it is right to use that word. If our Bible translation of choice used trespass, then I think we should use trespass.

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Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

That is truly the most awful font I have ever seen!

-----Added 9/17/2009 at 05:53:54 EST-----

Funny. I said that without even looking at Luke 11. So much for assuming. I can't look at the Greek right now because some [insert appropriate imprecation here] person broke into the church on Thursday and stole my laptop while I was out. I am working at home and, of course, my Greek NT is at the office.

All trespasses are sins, so I suspect that point is moot. I think the question then really is, why do we say debts instead of trespasses (or sins, if you prefer)?

Tradition?