Luke 15.4

JonathanHunt · #1 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:25 PM

Why does every commentator seem to have a different view of what the 99 sheep in luke 15.4 represent?

Poole: the 99 are saints in heaven

Henry: (a bit vague) the 99 are SAFE in the wilderness still in the Shepherd's care

Gill: the 99 are self-righteous Jews, externally 'just' and 'righteous' - hence the context of criticism of CHrist for eating with sinners (outwardly and conspicuously sinful men and women)

Preacher's Homiletic: Agrees with Gill that the 99 are those who have never risen above 'mere legal obedience'. None of the other quotes touch the 99.

I feel sympathy with Gill's view. The sheep are not 'in the fold', they're just out in the wilderness. I don't see any suipport for Henry's weird remark that they are 'safe' in the wilderness!

thoughts?

larryjf · #2 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:33 PM

I tend to think that we stretch the parable too far when we try to define who the 99 are. The parable is about the lost one, not the 99.

After all, the shepherd brings the one lost sheep back home on his shoulders...presumably putting him back into the sheepfold.

So we see that the parable is speaking to Christ's determination to call the lost to Himself for salvation, and it doesn't really speak any further than that in my opinion.

JonathanHunt · #3 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:37 PM

Thanks Larry, I had just now written in my sermon notes 'Its not about the 99, but about the one'. You are quite right. Of course, the context makes the 99 being self-righteous folk quite attractive - especially as v 7 speaks of 99 righteous who need no repentance. Who they?

etexas · #4 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

I tend to think that we stretch the parable too far when we try to define who the 99 are. The parable is about the lost one, not the 99.

After all, the shepherd brings the one lost sheep back home on his shoulders...presumably putting him back into the sheepfold.

So we see that the parable is speaking to Christ's determination to call the lost to Himself for salvation, and it doesn't really speak any further than that in my opinion.

Ditto, I used to have a book about the Parables of Christ (lost during a move), but I agree the emphasis is the seeking for the one sheep. We must remember that the parable is a literary device, and there are hazards in taking them beyond the obvious teaching.

JonathanHunt · #5 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

I tend to think that we stretch the parable too far when we try to define who the 99 are. The parable is about the lost one, not the 99.

After all, the shepherd brings the one lost sheep back home on his shoulders...presumably putting him back into the sheepfold.

So we see that the parable is speaking to Christ's determination to call the lost to Himself for salvation, and it doesn't really speak any further than that in my opinion.

Ditto, I used to have a book about the Parables of Christ (lost during a move), but I agree the emphasis is the seeking for the one sheep. We must remember that the parable is a literary device, and there are hazards in taking them beyond the obvious teaching.

What about the 'obvious teaching' in verse 7...

etexas · #6 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

I tend to think that we stretch the parable too far when we try to define who the 99 are. The parable is about the lost one, not the 99.

After all, the shepherd brings the one lost sheep back home on his shoulders...presumably putting him back into the sheepfold.

So we see that the parable is speaking to Christ's determination to call the lost to Himself for salvation, and it doesn't really speak any further than that in my opinion.

Ditto, I used to have a book about the Parables of Christ (lost during a move), but I agree the emphasis is the seeking for the one sheep. We must remember that the parable is a literary device, and there are hazards in taking them beyond the obvious teaching.

What about the 'obvious teaching' in verse 7...

If push came to shove, I would say Henry is on the right track.

Sometimes being vague is not a bad thing

esp. in this Parable in which the one lost sheep is the focus rather than the 99.

MOSES · #7 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 04:52 PM

A modern day example:

There is a 100 member church. 1 member falls into gross sin and temptation. The session attempts to show him the error of his ways but he refuses thier counsel. The man is put under discipline and faces excommunication.
The Lord works in the mans life, he repents, and he is brought back into the church and restored.

Everone in the Church rejoices over this and praises God for this 1 man who repented, then the 99 members of the church who did not go astray.

Presbyterian Deacon · #8 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Henry: (a bit vague) the 99 are SAFE in the wilderness still in the Shepherd's care

I don't see any suipport for Henry's weird remark that they are 'safe' in the wilderness!

thoughts?

This might help to understand Matthew Henry's comment:

"But 'the wilderness' here is no sandy or rocky desert, without herbage, the haunt of wild beasts or of wandering robber hoards; rather wide extended grassy plains, steppes or savannahs, called 'desert' because without habitations of men, but exactly the fittest place for the pasture of sheep. Thus we read in St. John (6:10) that 'there was much grass' in a place which by St. Matthew is called 'desert' (14:15)...Parts, it is true, of the larger deserts of Palestine or Arabia are as dreary and desolate as can be imagined, though as much from rock as from sandy levels; yet on the whole they offer far more variety of scenery, far more to refresh the eye, much wider extents of furtile or atleast grassy land, than is commonly supposed. We must understand then that the residue of the flock are left in their ordinary and safe pasturage, while the shepherd goes in search of the one which has strayed." Richard C. Trench, Notes on the Parables of Our Lord (Fleming H. Revell, 1953 --[page 377-8].

JonathanHunt · #9 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

A modern day example:

There is a 100 member church. 1 member falls into gross sin and temptation. The session attempts to show him the error of his ways but he refuses thier counsel. The man is put under discipline and faces excommunication.
The Lord works in the mans life, he repents, and he is brought back into the church and restored.

Everone in the Church rejoices over this and praises God for this 1 man who repented, then the 99 members of the church who did not go astray.

That fits with the context of the Parable how, precisely? Christ is teaching the Scribes and Pharisees that He must and will go after the vilest offenders. I don't really see how it relates to church discipline, I DO think that is a stretch too far!

JonathanHunt · #10 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Ditto, I used to have a book about the Parables of Christ (lost during a move), but I agree the emphasis is the seeking for the one sheep. We must remember that the parable is a literary device, and there are hazards in taking them beyond the obvious teaching.

What about the 'obvious teaching' in verse 7...

If push came to shove, I would say Henry is on the right track.

Sometimes being vague is not a bad thing

esp. in this Parable in which the one lost sheep is the focus rather than the 99.

So how would you preach this? How would you expound the 'ninety nine just persons who need no repentance' (verse 7, outside of the parable) - cause if you try vague you'll have a line of questioners after the sermon - I certainly would anyway!

JonathanHunt · #11 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:47 PM

On a general note, having spent time this evening reading more, I am comfortable with the venerable Dr Gill's exposition, and I do believe that is the reasonable way to reconcile verses 2 and 7. Verse 7 is an answer to verse 2, that much is obvious.

etexas · #12 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

What about the 'obvious teaching' in verse 7...

If push came to shove, I would say Henry is on the right track.

Sometimes being vague is not a bad thing

esp. in this Parable in which the one lost sheep is the focus rather than the 99.

So how would you preach this? How would you expound the 'ninety nine just persons who need no repentance' (verse 7, outside of the parable) - cause if you try vague you'll have a line of questioners after the sermon - I certainly would anyway!

Brother, I would not preach it, I am just dumb Texas land and oilman!

I Think I simply take the Parable at face value.

Lets get some PB Pastors to weigh in, they are smarter than me!

Daniel Ritchie · #13 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

On a general note, having spent time this evening reading more, I am comfortable with the venerable Dr Gill's exposition, and I do believe that is the reasonable way to reconcile verses 2 and 7. Verse 7 is an answer to verse 2, that much is obvious.

Its hard to go wrong with Dr. Gill...best commentary on the whole Bible by a mile.

MOSES · #14 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOSES

A modern day example:

There is a 100 member church. 1 member falls into gross sin and temptation. The session attempts to show him the error of his ways but he refuses thier counsel. The man is put under discipline and faces excommunication.
The Lord works in the mans life, he repents, and he is brought back into the church and restored.

Everone in the Church rejoices over this and praises God for this 1 man who repented, then the 99 members of the church who did not go astray.

That fits with the context of the Parable how, precisely? Christ is teaching the Scribes and Pharisees that He must and will go after the vilest offenders. I don't really see how it relates to church discipline, I DO think that is a stretch too far!

My example does not fit into the "context" of the parable at all...being it was a practical example, and not an exegetical analysis of the parable.
Most of us are not involved in literally sheparding sheep, but we are involved in the church and we have seen people go astray and come back, and we have seen people rejoice over this.

There is nothing more vile then a brother who departs from the "flock" and becomes involved in gross sin and inmorality. Perhaps the pharisee like members of the Church will not agree about going after these vile "covenant breakers", but Christ does. He leaves the 99 sittin pretty on the pews and goes after the 1 in the bar!

JonathanHunt · #15 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHunt

On a general note, having spent time this evening reading more, I am comfortable with the venerable Dr Gill's exposition, and I do believe that is the reasonable way to reconcile verses 2 and 7. Verse 7 is an answer to verse 2, that much is obvious.

Its hard to go wrong with Dr. Gill...best commentary on the whole Bible by a mile.

That is rapidly becoming my opinion too, certainly he is very easy to read and practical.