Tomorrow's family devotion takes us through Ezekiel 38, and I'm unsure how to treat Gog.

Meshech and Tubal were northern tribes in the region of modern Turkey according to Josephus, but no clear identity is given for Gog. Also, based on the invasion described in chapters 38 and 39, I'm not certain that Gog was a literal contemporary ruler during Ezekiel's time, nor do I know of any ruler of that name that threatened Israel to the extend spoken of in Ezekiel 38 and 39 during any point of her history.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards considering Gog as the Greek empire for two reasons. First, chapter 37 does refer to restoration of the people in the land and the rebuilding of the temple- which did occur in the fifth century BC under Zerubbabel (Yes, Ch.37 also speaks to the resurrection and the work of Christ, too). When the Greeks invaded, there are many similarities between what is described in Chapters 38 and 39 and the historical record- right through to the Maccabean era. The second reason is that the Roman conquest ended with Jerusalem's Destruction- not at all in line with the two Chapters.

Does anyone have any thoughts or references they can offer to the question of 'Who is Gog'?

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Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

Josephus Antiquities I.6.1

"Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians."

and the Sythians were a very nasty bunch.

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Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

Aye, I read Joe's missive on the grandchildren of Noah, but it still doesn't answer the question of Gog. Ezekiel doesn't claim that Gog is the leader of Magog, but rather that Gog's from that area. Ezekiel states that Gog is a prince of Rosh, Tubal and Meshech. I didn't find anything in Josephus concerning Rosh, and the other two are mentioned as you of course have shown. Also, Scythian lands did include parts of Macedonia.

The other problem is that the Scythians never made war against Israel. They were attacked by Darius late in the sixth century BC, but never ventured themselves far enough south to be a threat to the Hebrew lands.

Theognome

Don't you know Gog is RUSSIA? Come on, man, this is basic proffessseee!

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

*SLAP* Doooooh!

Yeah, I saw that somewhere... claiming that it's in the Hebrew. Well, it ain't in my Interlinear.

Theognome

I thought Gog was Iran now?

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Could be... Iran does seem to encapsulate the four corners of the earth...


Theognome

Well it was always Rooskies in my old denomination. We heard about it so much that I can say with all certainty that:

Not trying to embarrass you or anything but I think you spelled it backwards.

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
You know what my main problem is? I start things but rarely finish anyth...

Indeed. I'll spell goG properly next time.

The idea of it being Russia seems outlandish to me. I looked up the reasoning, and the primary claim seems to be that the Hebrew word 'Rosh' (translated as Prince in V.2) means 'Russia'. This is absurd, since the word Russia didn't exist in Ezekiel's time. Also, some try to identify Meshech and Tubal as Moscow and Tobolsk- equally absurd since they are clearly spoken of in Ezekiel as being in the land of Magog, which was in Asia Minor.

Theognome

Patrick Fairbairn's commentary provides the idealist view. I have to agree with him that a literal referent cannot harmonise all the elements of the prophecy.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

No, that wouldn't matter, since many peoples have changed country names and location since Ezekiel. There wasn't any Iran in Ezekiel's time, since it was 60 years after Ezekiel was written before Cyrus defeated Babylon and moved onto the world stage. There was no Morocco in his time, no Turkey etc...

Scythian was a generic name for a large group of people during the time of Josephus, and modern Slavs probably come from this group, so Russia could very well be meant, if indeed Gog meant Scythians. The problem of course is setting a time when the events took place or will take place.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

First, brother, as a Pastor I would like to just say how it warms and delights my heart that you are planning your family worship ahead of time. May the Lord bless you as you continue to diligently study to shepherd your family in the Gospel.

To offer my personal opinion: I would agree with brother Winzer that a literal referent is not clear in Scripture. As G.K. Beale in his commentary on Revelation indicates, Ezekiel distinguishes Gog and Magog from the other nations of the earth who rally with them (38:2-7, 15, 22; 29:4) but in Rev. 20:8 (the Old Testament in the New revealed) it would appear that the nations are universalized in opposition to "Israel". See Beale NIGTC 1022 ff.

I think the fundamental point in explicating this aspect of Gog's identity to the family would be along the lines of no matter how fearsome the opposition, no matter how mighty man's empires may be/have been, God preserved/preserves His remnant and will judge those who oppose Him.

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~Pastor Chris Powell~
Covenant Baptist Church, Toronto
Church Website: www.covenantbaptistchurch.com
Team Blog:www.ardentcries.com

The preservation of His remnant follows naturally from the two preceeding chapters, and is of course the main thrust of the study. The first 20 chapters or so spend so much ink on Israel's judgement that chapters 36 and 37 are very much a sigh of relief. 38 and 39 naturally (and 35 to some extent, with the judgement of Edom) show how the Lord fulfills His promise to His chosen.

As I mentioned above, I do not, at this point, consider Gog to be a specific literal person, though I'm still leaning towards showing the possibility of the Greek empire as being part of its fulfillment. I don't think that 'dating' the event is too difficult if we assume that chapter 38 continues the context from the preceeding chapter- which clearly speaks of the return of the exiles and the coming(s) of Christ. Since the events as described didn't happen during His incarnation, that would leave the 2nd coming or the post-exillic period. Revelation treats Gog in the eschatalogical sense, and I feel that, although Ezekiel could be also doing so, is probably not.

Either way, we'll have a fun study.

Theognome

Gary DeMar has a book out on Ezekiel 38 and Gog. I have not read it but I know he ties Ezekiel 38 to events that are found in the book of Esther. Very interesting, imo. The book can be found at:

American Vision: A Biblical Worldview Ministry

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Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

Gog is the prince named in Ezekiel 38.

Next question.

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Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

Zechariah 12 and the "Esther Connection"

Here is a link about the book mentioned above. I loved this track and highly recommend it. It connects Easter to Zech.12 and would love to see a discussion about this topic.

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.