Isaiah ch 6 "Blindness"

Scott Bushey · #1 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 08:23 AM

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
Isa 6:9 And he said, "Go, and say to this people: "'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
Isa 6:11 Then I said, "How long, O Lord?" And he said: "Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste,
Isa 6:12 and the LORD removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled." The holy seed is its stump.

In light of the doctrine of total depravity what is your opinion on this event? Why did God have to blind Israel if in fact they were already totally depraved?

BobVigneault · #2 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 08:37 AM

The way I see that passage Scott is this:

God is not actively changing the hearts of the people to a depraved state but leaving their hearts dull EVEN in the presence of sound teaching and the gospel message.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God but no one can hear unless God quickens the understanding.

So the people would hear the Word that would save but the Lord prevented any kind of quickening. The usually procedure is that God gives the command and gives the ability at the same time. Example: "Stretch out your hand!" But in this passage of Isaiah God is describing how he will give the command but without giving the ability and gives the condition for when he will return to the usual procedure.

[Edited on 31-1-2005 by maxdetail]

Scott Bushey · #3 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 08:42 AM

Bob,
Ok; so your position is that God is not actually 'blinding or deafening' but actually leaving them in a state of total depravity?

a mere housewife · #4 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 10:30 AM

Scott, just a thought: it seems to me that if the heart is not softened by the Scripture it comes into contact with, it is hardened by it. The more we "kick against the pricks", the more callous we get. I wonder if God couldn't actually blind these people further, by as Bob suggests, leaving them in their condition of total depravity. Without His grace, His Word is a savor of death unto death: it does act upon us, but it acts upon us negatively, rather than positively, because our condition to begin with is total depravity.

PuritanBouncer · #5 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 10:36 AM

What Heidi says makes some sense! I have spoken to people who seem angered at the scriptures, but not because they do not believe them per se', but because they do want to be held accountable to them.

I find this in my old church and amongst those who I once fellowshipped. (Not all of them of course) They tend to want to acknowledge God and His word but that's it. The second you want to discuss what God and His word mean in regard to us and our life theyshut down and often become angry. It's as if the gospel causes them to get "harder" even though they acknowledge it.

Dunno if that makes sense. I hope I explained what I mean well enough.

BobVigneault · #6 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 10:43 AM

Yes, Scott that's my position without getting too technical. We may allow for some accomodating language here. God does blind the lost by means of not letting the word be effectual. I think it was Rolph Barnard, but I'm not certain, who said that all those who hear the gospel WILL be saved, however, no one can hear the gospel except the Lord give us ears to hear.

Heidi, your observation reminds me of the comparison between the ark (Noah's) and the gospel. The ark saved thoroughly those inside but utterly condemned the majority outside. The gospel is good news for the elect, terrible news for the lost.

PuritanBouncer · #7 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

The ark saved thoroughly those inside but utterly condemned the majority outside. The gospel is good news for the elect, terrible news for the lost.

NICE!

Scott Bushey · #8 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 10:47 AM

It saved Ham from the water, not from Hell.

Gen 9:24 When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,
Gen 9:25 he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers."
Gen 9:26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant.
Gen 9:27 May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant."

BobVigneault · #9 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 11:03 AM

Ofcourse Scott, the analogy won't walk on all fours. The whole group inside was only representational of those who are saved. I do think Origen and Mary Baker Eddy might find an analogous meaning for everyone inside.

[Edited on 31-1-2005 by maxdetail]

Scott Bushey · #10 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maxdetail
Ofcourse Scott, the analogy won't walk on all fours. The whole group inside was only representational of those who are saved. I do think Origen and Mary Baker Eddy might find an anologous meaning for everyone inside.

Yes. God did save Ham only from the water...........

fredtgreco · #11 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 11:15 AM

Moving to OT Prophecy

Ianterrell · #12 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 11:17 AM

I strongly disagree with the idea that this text does not teach God actively reprobates the nonelect. Christ also speaks of this in the New Testament. He had to deal with blinded eyes, and stopped up ears. His minstry was to be rejected by the House of Israel that he came to save. Christ and John the Baptist acted as Covenant Lawyers (to borrow M. Kline's term) and condemned the unfaithful servants of Israel. What little had been given to the unfaithful servants was given to the faithful with more blessings added upon it. Israel was divorced eventually, cut off from the Olive tree. This should sober us as Paul teaches in Rom 11 we ought to be afraid less God cuts us off from the covenant head, Yeshua.