OT ProphetsDiscussion of Major and Minor Prophets, from Isaiah - Malachi The Spirit of the Lord is on me, for the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor (Is. 61:1)
I'm curious as to some of your thoughts on the language of Isaiah 53. Much of it was written in past tense, but then there are some key parts that are written in future tense.
Obviously when Isaiah wrote this the Cross was still over 700 years away. I understand it was a Messianic prophetic passage. I'm just curious as to why you think Isaiah switched back and forth from past and future tense almost interchangeably throughout the passage.
Was it simply to show that eternally in the mind of God redemption was decreed, but yet had to be fulfilled in time? Which kind of shoots in the foot the dispensational thinking that the Cross was a Plan B, but that's a whole other .
Thoughts?
__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls "But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10
"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton
Brither Ryan,
You have hit the most incredible passage, respecting the Covenant of Redemption. This passage is nothing more nor less than the Father's will expressed to the Son, and the promises he makes to him on the basis of what he (assuredly) fulfills. The flux of tense in the passage is indicative of the atemporal quality of this agreement; it is eternal. But Isaiah is recording it as both a past agreement, a future fulfillment, and something so certain, as to be declared successful in its accomplishment before the Mediator even appears in the flesh.
Thomas Goodwin, in his treatise "of Christ the Mediator" (Works, vol. 5) expresses this much more fully and adequately than I. Blew me away when I read it.
I quote myself from another thread: "And if you desire to see the Covenant agreement itself, begin reading in Isaiah 49, and then do not miss the stipulations of the bargain, Is. 53: the Servant shall do thus and such, and Jehovah will do thus and such."
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --
I think I've seen you make reference to that on other boards......but I've never heard a dispensational preacher actually say that.
Could you give an example of a dispensational-leaning church that officially teaches that?
It is a necessary and logical consequence of the classic Scofieldian view that salvation of Jews in the OT was by works and the Church in the NT is a parenthetical point in history where grace by faith is the rule, but that later Israel returns to reclaim its primacy.
Modern dispensationalism often radically softens this view, and is slowly coming to a much healthier view of Israel and the Church, but this dichotomy is still there.
__________________ Scott - Dallas, Texas - PCA
"It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke
Actually Isaiah begins his Messianic writing in chapter 52:13-15. He introduces Jesus' physical condition at the cross (52:14) and His kingly reign (52:15).
I see the tense changes as revealing the redemptive motif of the chapter. It is interesting that all the references to the Messiah are past tense until verses 10-12.
The atoning work of the Messiah is complete (52:12, "Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."), His second coming and kingly reign are yet to come.
__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
It is a necessary and logical consequence of the classic Scofieldian view that salvation of Jews in the OT was by works and the Church in the NT is a parenthetical point in history where grace by faith is the rule, but that later Israel returns to reclaim its primacy.
Modern dispensationalism often radically softens this view, and is slowly coming to a much healthier view of Israel and the Church, but this dichotomy is still there.
Tonight at church we were discussing daily devotionals, and one member went on about his Scofield Bible.
I just bit my tongue.
How would you address this? (I found this via google-searching for 'dispensational plan b')
The method of salvation, justification by faith alone, never changes through the dispensations
Quote:
seeing the church as part of Plan A and not Plan B is what makes someone Dispensational
(I should mention: I live in a dispensational world, amongst folks who virtually never discuss dispensationalism. I see more merit in CT, but I suppose I'm a bit Piperish in my views that both schools of thought have at least some merit)
__________________
Chris Latch
Corinth MS
Crossroads church - SBC
Evangelism leader
Jonathan Edwards, [whoops, OK, the site says "John Edwards (1637-1716)" the famous Dispensationalist theologian? Surely they (at that site) must be kidding...
A very tendentious website, as if those Early church fathers would have seen dispies as their heirs? They are trying to sell this view as the doctrine of the faithful--actually present in the earliest documents of the church. Isn't it neat how there aren't any actual quotations, just vague reference that these men believed in principles consistent with dispensationalism?
Also they present modern dispensationalism, and repudiate the old-line, without so much as an acknowledgment that what they state is NOT dispensationalism WAS, in fact, dispensationalism.
The church as "plan A" being dispensationalism--this is just a rewriting of dispie history. I think this site is barely honest...
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --
Check, OK, I misread J.E. Googled him, he's an older English Calvinist divine. http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Chu...itas_info.html
Still, this cherry picking of names prior to Darby, to try and establish a more creditable theological pedigree is misleading and shameful.
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --
Rev. Bruce - That was my line of thinking, but you had a way of expressing it better. Thanks.
Isaiah 53 was already one of the dearest passages in Scripture to my heart, but seeing it in the light of the Covenant of Redemption makes it even more glorious!
__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls "But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10
"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton
Thanks Jay. I'm downloading that message as I type right now. Looking forward to it. I spend most of my time listening to Beeke's sermons on Sermon Audio, so it's always a treat when I have someone recommend me to listen to someone else.
God bless!
__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls "But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10
"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton
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