What is your take on Song of Solomon....

1) primarily meant to be an analogy between Christ and the church,

2) primarily meant to be an example of a proper relationship between a husband and a wife,

3) or equally both?

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Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

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I think both. I definitely see Christ and His Church in this Scripture. But just as the passage in Ephesians which relates the love of Christ for His Church to the love of a husband for his wife, the allegory makes sense because it is grounded in the husband-wife relationship. Likewise, in the Song of Solomon, the husband-wife relationship serves as the touchstone for the relationship between Christ and His bride, the Church.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

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Chris


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Christopher Blum
Member of Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Germantown, TN
Currently attending Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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Both

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

I answered "primarily meant to be an analogy between Christ and the church", because I believe that is what it is primarily. The imagery of the relationship between a husband and wife is incident to this allegory, but it would not seem to me that this aspect was meant as the central focus, and so I would not say "equally both".

By the way, Dr. Masters of the Metropolitan Tabernacle has written a helpful devotional commentary on the Song of Solomon entitled "The Mutual Love of Christ and His People" which elaborates on this central aspect of the book. It was written in conjunction with a series of Wednesday night messages he presented on the subject.

http://www.tabernaclebookshop.org/pr...?partno=MAST13

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by Jie-Huli]

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Jie-Huli
Metropolitan Tabernacle Church
London, England

both

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Both, but I don't know about the 'equally' part.

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Since it is incomparably the greatest dignity to be introduced into the company of angels, nay, to be made the associates of Christ, he who estimates this favor of God aright, will regard all other things as worthless. Then neither poverty, nor contempt, nor nakedness, nor famine nor thirst, will make his mind so anxious, but that he will sustain himself with this consolation. "Since the Lord has conferred on me the principal thing, it behooves me patiently to bear the loss of other things, which are inferior."--John Calvin

both

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JC
URCNA
PA

"Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean we will allow injustice again." --Jack Kornfield

I voted for primarily an analogy of Christ and His Church. Though the book definitely addresses the physical aspects of the marital relationship, all things are ultimately about Christ (Ephesians 1:19-23)

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

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I'm not sure I'd want Christ to do some of the things discussed in this book to His Church. Maybe I'm alone on this one ...

Gabe

That depends on whether you accept some of the more modern, lurid, ideas about what this book is describing.

This book is very much a victim of the modern, hollow hermeneutic beloved of so many seminaries today.

I voted 'primarily Christ', but I would rather have had the option of 'both, but Primarily Christ'

JH

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

I vote for both.

Neither hermeneutic takes away from the gospel. The analogy of Christ and His church relates well to the doctrine of Union with Christ. Likewise, the literal reading is a means of grace and wisdom for the courting phase and marriage phase of interpersonal relations. I see neither interpretation as mutually exclusive, but rather one as a fine complement to the other.

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Scott McManus
Attending Hillcrest Church
RTS Charlotte - MA Distance
Dallas TX

Except there is no marriage in the Song of Solomon.



JH

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

What makes you say that?

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JC
URCNA
PA

"Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean we will allow injustice again." --Jack Kornfield

You ve got to love the can o' worms image... : )

I didn't say there was a "marriage ceremony" in the Song, just that there is a relationship between man and women who engage in sensual activity, which being a couple, they must relate to each other is some phase of a relationship (be it analogous to marriage or ??), and thus I contend that the Song gives a picture of the dynamics of that relationship. The Song itself is scripture and scripture is a means of grace and wisdom.

Seems that this thread has been done before.

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Scott McManus
Attending Hillcrest Church
RTS Charlotte - MA Distance
Dallas TX

I recommend that any interested in this topic interact with Song of Solomon commentary by Tremper Longman. It will not end the debate, but you will be well informed by a reformed brother.

Word to ya!

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Scott McManus
Attending Hillcrest Church
RTS Charlotte - MA Distance
Dallas TX

It's safe to go to hell now.

It's frozen.

Gabriel and I agree.

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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
Sunday School Teacher (Elementary 2), Gaithersburg Community Church (EFCA)
http://www.gchurch.org
The Blog: THINK! - Wrestlin' With Wordz -N- Ideaz
The Upcoming CD: The Definition

It is both, but it is the analogy of Christ and the church that takes precedence in terms of the macrocosmic picture. Our marriages are intended by God to be a microcosmic picture of the relationship between Christ and his church, as we learn explicitly from Ephesians 5:31-32...
Thus our marriages are intended by God to be a minature reflection of Christ's relationship to his church, which is why the Song of Solomon can be applied to our personal relationships with our spouses, because they are to reflect the bigger picture (the macrocosm) of Christ's relationship to the Church. Marriage is meant by God to be a minature relationship of the union that we the Church have with Christ. Our marriages are not the ultimate reality"”They are a temporary reality foreshadowing the great union of Christ with his Church. This gives a strong incentive to us to live godly with and before our spouses, to be tender with them, and as husbands to love them as Christ loves His Church.

It also has reference to how we are to regard one another as fellow members of Christ's spouse, the church, because it is together that we make up the spouse of Christ, not as isolated individuals.

Blessings,
DTK

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Sola Scriptura est norma normans non normata
David T. King, pastor
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Elkton, Maryland
Augustine (354-430): Therefore what He [i.e., Christ] has deigned to speak to us, we ought to believe that He meant us to understand. But if we do not understand He, being asked, gives understanding, who gave His Word unasked. NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate XXII, §1.

Jie-Huli made this recommendation

And I would second it. Time for you puritanheads to get back to the puritan hermeneutic!

Will post a little more on the marriage/sensual relationship thing later.

JH

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by JonathanHunt]

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Just as a passing comment....

Isn't it a bit gnostic to try and spiritualize SoS instead of just letting it be what it appears to be on the surface ?

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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
Sunday School Teacher (Elementary 2), Gaithersburg Community Church (EFCA)
http://www.gchurch.org
The Blog: THINK! - Wrestlin' With Wordz -N- Ideaz
The Upcoming CD: The Definition

I think it was Origen who thought that

1:13 A bundle of myrrh is my beloved to me, That lies all night between my breasts.

was the cross lying between the Old and New covenants.

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

More soon. Suffice to say I wholly disagree!

JH

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

I think in a way both.However,not equally.There it is spoken of lovemaking.I would deffinently say that it is a physical representation of Christ`s marriage to the church.Of the love and care for his beloved wife and his wife`s undying love for the husband.Good tool in showing why we have a devotion for Christ.It is written of the love a husband and wife show to each other.If we are to claim he is our husband,then we are to love him.

[Edited on 6-22-2005 by Average Joey]

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Joe Burgess
Grace Bible Church - http://www.gracemessenger.com/
Olive Branch,MS

"Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?" - St. Polycarp

I whole-heartedly agree, Kerry

A few thoughts,
Rev Kok is certainly correct to see all things finding their fulfilment in Christ, but how do we draw the parallels in a way that is faithful to the scriptures?

Normally, in cases of typology/allegory we let Scripture itself determine how it is to be read, or in this case the allegory drawn.

In some ways we need to be careful of reading modern-day luridity into the otherwise sexual language of the poem. However, breasts in the OT were the same as breasts in the New Covenant age.

Average Joey makes a good point in saying that this should be a spur for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. I agree and hope the reference to the physical love between husbands and wives is still maintained in the poem.

I think DTK balances the line best when he sees the physical aspect of the poem as a temporal reality foreshadowing the marriage banquet of the Lamb (my reference here).

I just now saw that. Great!

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College