Does anyone have any good thoughts or resources on why the psalms often change person, or speaking perspective (eg. sometimes they start as 1st person and then shift to second or third person)? It makes them difficult to use in song or prayer, as it is hard to understand in what sense we could be singing or praying from the second or third person.

The notes to Psalm 121 in the Spirit of the Reformation study Bible suggest that Psalm 121 may have been a liturgical reading (probably sung). It would go like this:

The Congregation:
The Priest Responds:
This makes allot of sense, but I would like to see backup on whether this is really how they were used.

[Edited on 10-31-2005 by Scott]

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

O. Palmer Robertson's Book Psalms in Congregational Celebration goes into this. His thesis is that a lot of them are responsive readings/singings back and forth within the congregation. Don't bet the farm on my quick analysis of that as I just skimmed it at a local bookstore. I have that on my wish list.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

Chris: It is time to get the book, read it, and tell me what he say. You may use this thread as an excuse to buy the book. :bigsmile:

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

With all the EP people on the board, I am surprised there are no answers. How do you psalm singers understand what you are singing when you sing in the second or third person (eg. vs. 3-8 of Psalm 121)?

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

My non EP opinion here:

David, is preaching to himself. It is the Spirit responding to David from within.

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Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Two important ideas here may help:

When Eli say Hannah praying, he thought she was drunk. She was mouthing the words without praying aloud. (Irregular). Usually, people would come to the temple and pray aloud, and the priest would then bless them as the priest heard from God and delivered a message to the "prayee". Eli, after finding out that she is not drunk, blesses her and her prayer went from supplication to thanksgiving. There was a shift in her prayer. The psalms often demonstrate this.

Also, there is a hermenuetical shift to be aware of in that the Psalms are men's prayers to God (contexturally) but God's word to men. in this, the intent of the prayer or song should first be understood. The Psalms, incredibly so, speak in the first person or in the present for those singing them. They are as relevant and full of the Spirit's teaching to us about key truths surrounding any theological concept. No wonder why Luther called the Psalms "a little Bible."

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

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Matt: I am not following. I am talking about a shift in person (ie. going from first person to second person, or from "I" to "you"), not shift in content.

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

Mark: It is true that there are psalms that involve some kind of internal dialogue (eg. Psalm 42:5) and that is one option for Psalm 121, although it does not seem like what is happening to me.

But there are other Psalms where the psalmist uses the third person and speaks to the wicked, kings and rulers, trees and fields, etc. For example, Psalm 2:10-11 reads: "Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling."

What does it mean to "pray" psalm 2? Shouldn't prayers be directed to God? Yet, this is directed in part to kings of the world.

Prayer of the psalms has been a common practice throughout Christendom, from Augustine to Luther (Luther prayed through the psalms every thirty days) and beyond.

[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Scott]

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

I think praying the Psalms means going verse by verse and praying in context with the idea of the Psalm. Like in Psalm 2, you would pray for world leaders, local magistrates etc . . .

Not necessarily praying it word for word all the time. Some you can do that with. Also, an exhortation to the unconverted can bee seen as an imprecatory prayer to the God you are calling then accountable to.

__________________
Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Mark: That is one approach, and is a good approach. But it is not the only approach. Typically, psalms as prayers in the daily office of churches like the Anglican Church involve praying it verbatim, not using it as a guide.

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

I realize that and maybe that is why I typically do not pray them through literally. However, I do not think it is wrong.

The idea of Psalm 2 for instance as shifting from talking to God, then to men. It is first of all a song, so I do not think we can be too strict about it.
Secondly, when conversing with God, it seems appropriate to speak what He has spoken concerning the heathen. A shift from first to third person is very prophetic in the sense that our dialogue is with the eternal.

I don't know for sure though. Good question.

__________________
Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Its the idea. The hermeneutical shifts from I to you is what I meant.

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church, Professor at WTS for Puritan History & Theology.

Suggested Tag: "I'm not user friendly."

Life Maxim: Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.
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Matt: So what does it mean to pray in the second person? The Lord's prayer, for example, is written entirely in the first person and it is easy to understand - a direct appeal to God. WHen we shift to second person, we cease to address God.

__________________
Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

BTW, this raised a new question that I put in the Confession forum, praying the psalms and LC 179.

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas