Job 9:13 - The oldest book?

C. Matthew McMahon · #1 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 12:22 PM

A bit of trivia:

Job is said to be oldest written book in the canon. If this is true, how could Job have mentioned Rahab?

"God will not turn back his anger; beneath him bowed the helpers of Rahab."

How would you explain this? Any takers?

SolaScriptura · #2 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 12:26 PM

The way I see it there are two possibilities:

1. Tradition concerning the age of the book is wrong.

2. The Rahab of Job is a different Rahab than the Rahab of Joshua.

Joshua · #3 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 12:37 PM

Hmm...

blhowes · #4 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 12:39 PM

Another thought is that the scriptures are of divine origin. If the book was only written by man, then mentioning Rahab in the book of Job while claiming its the first book written would present problems. Since God is the author and He knows the future as if its the present, naming a person's name before they were born just shows the omniscience, providence, etc. of God.

Just my :wr50:,
Bob

[Edited on 1-20-2004 by blhowes]

SolaScriptura · #5 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 01:09 PM

[quote:81aa5aa198][i:81aa5aa198]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:81aa5aa198]
Another thought is that the scriptures are of divine origin. If the book was only written by man, then mentioning Rahab in the book of Job while claiming its the first book written would present problems. Since God is the author and He knows the future as if its the present, naming a person's name before they were born just shows the omniscience, providence, etc. of God.

Just my :wr50:,
Bob

[Edited on 1-20-2004 by blhowes] [/quote:81aa5aa198]

Unlikely.
The "cohorts of Rahab" are mentioned in the past tense... not future tense.

blhowes · #6 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 01:30 PM

[b:c73151b0d3]SolaScriptura wrote:[/b:c73151b0d3]
Unlikely, The "cohorts of Rahab" are mentioned in the past tense... not future tense.

Or, God could have been looking back on Rahab's life from the future as if it already happened.

Its possible, but perhaps one of your two suggestions are closer to hitting the target.

Beyond tradition, is there any strong evidence to suggest that Job was actually the first book written?

Also, its interesting that the KJV translates Job 9:13 like this:

Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.

I checked the NASB, RSV, and they NIV and they all mention Rahab. Any Hebrew scholars know why the KJV translates it differently?

[Edited on 1-20-2004 by blhowes]

blhowes · #7 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 01:39 PM

Here's another thought from Gill's commentary:

Some render it, "the helpers of Rahab"; that is, of Egypt (o), Rahab being a name of Egypt, Psa_87:4.

Here's Psalm 87:4
Psa 87:4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there

Strongs says this of Rahab:

rahab
rah'-hab
The same as H7293; Rahab (that is, boaster), an epithet of Egypt: - Rahab.

#8 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 01:40 PM

Rahab could simply mean the cohorts of the proud. Rahab in hebrew could mean proud.

Also, simply because it is the oldest story does not mean it is the oldest book.

pastorway · #9 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 03:33 PM

Rahab in Hebrew is used as the name of the woman in Jericho (Joshua 2:1-3; 6:17, 23-25),

[quote:57ec01697e]
[b:57ec01697e]Joshua 2[/b:57ec01697e]
1 Now Joshua the son of Nun sent out two men from Acacia Grove to spy secretly, saying, "Go, view the land, especially Jericho." So they went, and came to the house of a [b:57ec01697e]harlot named Rahab[/b:57ec01697e], and lodged there. 2And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, "Behold, men have come here tonight from the children of Israel to search out the country." 3So the king of Jericho sent to Rahab, saying, "Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the country."

[b:57ec01697e]Joshua 6[/b:57ec01697e]
17Now the city shall be doomed by the LORD to destruction, it and all who are in it. Only [b:57ec01697e]Rahab the harlot[/b:57ec01697e] shall live, she and all who are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

23And the young men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab, her father, her mother, her brothers, and all that she had. So they brought out all her relatives and left them outside the camp of Israel. 24But they burned the city and all that was in it with fire. Only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. 25And Joshua spared [b:57ec01697e]Rahab the harlot[/b:57ec01697e], her father's household, and all that she had. So she dwells in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. [/quote:57ec01697e]

and the name of Egypt (Ps 87:4; 89:10; Isaiah 30:7; 51:9).

[quote:57ec01697e]
[b:57ec01697e]Isaiah 30[/b:57ec01697e]
7For the [b:57ec01697e]Egyptians[/b:57ec01697e] shall help in vain and to no purpose. Therefore I have called her [b:57ec01697e]Rahab-Hem-Shebeth.[/b:57ec01697e]

[b:57ec01697e]Isaiah 51[/b:57ec01697e]
9Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD! Awake as in the ancient days, In the generations of old. Are You not the arm that cut [b:57ec01697e]Rahab[/b:57ec01697e] apart, and wounded the serpent?

[b:57ec01697e]Psalm 87[/b:57ec01697e]
4"I will make mention of [b:57ec01697e]Rahab and Babylon[/b:57ec01697e] to those who know Me; behold, O Philistia and Tyre, with Ethiopia: "This one was born there."

[b:57ec01697e]Psalm 89[/b:57ec01697e]
10You have broken [b:57ec01697e]Rahab[/b:57ec01697e] in pieces, as one who is slain; You have scattered Your enemies with Your mighty arm. [/quote:57ec01697e]

Notice, every occurance and context where the woman of Jericho is the "Rahab" being talked about, it qualifies the word by saying the "[b:57ec01697e]harlot[/b:57ec01697e] Rahab". This is even true in the NT passages that mention her (Heb 11:31; James 2:25). The only exception is when Rahab appears in the lineage of Jesus in Matthew 1, but there it is clear that she is a mother, and hence the woman from Jericho.

So the usage in Job does not mention her as the harlot, and in fact, the Hebrew word [i:57ec01697e]rahab[/i:57ec01697e] means literally "arrogance."

The NKJV translates this verse correctly then, when it says, "God will not withdraw His anger, [b:57ec01697e]the allies of the proud[/b:57ec01697e] lie prostrate beneath Him."

Phillip

C. Matthew McMahon · #10 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 03:51 PM

Answer:

The section in Job that this passage is dealing with is the "Creation - the canopy for God's Appearing". When God comes on the scene, he shakes the earth, performs great deeds, etc. He does not "restrain his anger" until every power, earthly and cosmic, lie prostate before him (literal Hebrew there). God has victory over the "cohorts of Rahab," and "it" was a legendary monstor along with Leviathan and Tannin who inhabited the "depths of the sea." So the ideas surrounds the "chaos" that runs in opposition to the work and power of God (i.e. Israel's neighbors ultimately) but God is the master over all cosmic forces, including his enemies. (cf. Job 26:12)

rahab • 1) pride, blusterer 1a) storm, arrogance (but only as names) 1a1) mythical sea monster 1a2) emblematic name of Egypt

Interesting eh?

SolaScriptura · #11 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 04:34 PM

So I was right! The Rahab of Job is NOT the Rahab or Joshua.

#12 (**permalink**) 01-20-2004, 05:07 PM

[quote:a0845f6123]
The section in Job that this passage is dealing with is the "Creation - the canopy for God's Appearing". When God comes on the scene, he shakes the earth, performs great deeds, etc. He does not "restrain his anger" until every power, earthly and cosmic, lie prostate before him (literal Hebrew there). God has victory over the "cohorts of Rahab," and "it" was a legendary monstor along with Leviathan and Tannin who inhabited the "depths of the sea." So the ideas surrounds the "chaos" that runs in opposition to the work and power of God (i.e. Israel's neighbors ultimately) but God is the master over all cosmic forces, including his enemies. (cf. Job 26:12)
[/quote:a0845f6123]

Sounds like Paradise Lost. These could be the incarnations of daemonic entities.

TheonomyNZ · #13 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 04:32 AM

The question that should immediately come to mind is: Why should I believe that Job is the oldest book in the Bible? What reasons are there to think so?

Puritan Sailor · #14 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 05:21 AM

Another question perhaps, if Job is the oldest book, how did it this story of a Babylonian come to be aquired by the Jewish people? Was it handed down from Abraham?

#15 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 10:07 AM

Those questions are why I say it might be the oldest story, but not necessarily the oldest book.

kceaster · #16 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 12:48 PM

I am receiving an email everyday of Bible passages that are supposed to be in chronological order.

They have placed the entire book of Job after Genesis 11, making Job either predecessor or contemporary of Abraham.

I will research this in both Young and Hendrickson tonight and see if they provide an explanation for this.

In Christ,

KC

[Edited on 1-22-2004 by kceaster]

Bladestunner316 · #17 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 03:57 PM

How do we decide a book is canon if we have no clue who the author was?

Isnt this an important issue?

blade

Puritan Sailor · #18 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 05:26 PM

[quote:47cec7c0f1][i:47cec7c0f1]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:47cec7c0f1]
How do we decide a book is canon if we have no clue who the author was?

Isnt this an important issue?

blade [/quote:47cec7c0f1]

Well, its not just the author that's important. It's also the content of the work, the self attesting quality that it is God's Word, and the usefulness of it to the Church.

Bladestunner316 · #19 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 07:22 PM

well what if joe blow wrote a book like this would we then canonize it?

not tryin to be contentious(sp?)

blade

kceaster · #20 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 10:57 PM

Hendricksen says that it is impossible to date, but that Job is a real figure and the story told as part of the wisdom literature, therefore probably authored by a contemporary of Solomon.

E.J. Young says that it is impossible to date as well and says that the opinions range from Moses as author, to an author who lived around 200 BC. He believes that Job is a contemporary of the patriarchs but does not make any speculation as to who wrote it or when it was written.

Hendricksen brings out the fact that Ezekiel mentions Job and so does James. Therefore, the people of the OT in to the first century AD believed that Job was a real person.

In Christ,

KC

fredtgreco · #21 (**permalink**) 01-22-2004, 11:04 PM

[quote:62c27b2660][i:62c27b2660]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:62c27b2660]
well what if joe blow wrote a book like this would we then canonize it?

not tryin to be contentious(sp?)

blade [/quote:62c27b2660]

Certainty of author is not necessary. Who wrote Kings? Chronicles? Hebrews?

Bladestunner316 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-19-2004, 02:10 AM

Allthough the human author does not override the divine author I still think it brings alot in respect to the canonical purpose of the book. Surely we wouldnt except it if it was authored by pharoh?

well anyway I still have more studying to do

blade