Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?

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Ben Franks

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"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

We Sing Them....

One of my favorites is Psalm 137...

Pick up the Book by Jay Adams "War Psalms of the Prince of Peace". Excellent work on the topic...

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Michael Daniels
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Ben,

Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...

In the Psalm you referenced (Psalm 69), David was asking God to judge those who acted against His anointed. In the now God's anointed was David. Prophetically it was Messiah. David understood the holiness of God's anointed:

Paul often had to defend his apostleship from those who worked against him:

At their core imprecatory Psalms are not about the wrong done to the author but about the injustice done to God. They are about God's holiness. Consider this imprecatory passage in Galatians:

Paul was consumed with the purity of the gospel, which is the word of God. By extension the gospel message is representative of Christ. Therefore, it is a matter of God's holiness and those that trample underfoot God's holiness or distort his word are subject to eternal anathema.

I believe your study of the imprecatory Psalms will be worthwhile if you focus on God's holiness and that the call for God's judgment is because his holiness is disrespected by the ungodly.

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Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.

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P.M.
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Imprecatory Psalms are imprecations against God's enemies.

God is glorified in restraining, conquering and judging his enemies. Thus, to sing the imprecatory Psalms is glorifying to God. It also glorifies God when we remember that we are numbered among the most worthy objects of the imprecations, and that is only by God's grace and mercy that he has dealt so mercifully with us in making us his friends.

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zzzzzz ...

Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?

P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!

Psalm 55, for example:

verses 12-15

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Westminster Bookstore - Reformed Books - Low Prices - $5 Shipping - War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms

This book would be a benefit to eveyone here.

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This may sound weird but this Psalm was a great comfort to me when I was going thru my divorce.

Randy, amen. Not weird at all. Not every Psalm is imprecatory.

Psalm 137

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
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Deo Vindice

A psalm I often sing at home.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
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– John Deacon -

AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”

This is the command :

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).

God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.

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"Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.

Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.

Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.

I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.

My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.

I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.

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(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version

Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.

Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.

Irregardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.

We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgement of God on our enemies and His.

Yes, this is Paul wishing the false teachers who corrupt the church were cut off. But do we see God answering this prayer? No.

Randy wrote:

I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgement. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."

And literally your text quote is the Alexandrian text. Not the majority text.

And Paul's desire to see those with a false Gospel in Galatians to cut themelves was his understanding that they were cursed.

And I do believe God does reward the wicked here on earth. He has ministers of civil law for this. And I do believe we should support them and God's will in this. I also believe God sends punishment in disease and famine to the earth for men's wickedness. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Yes God does this Himself without the prompting of sinful man Randy. I do not know about this manuscript stuff. But I do know it is a prophetic uterance that speaks of a present/future event put in God's hands. You have a conflict with Paul then Randy. One you will have trouble loosing yourself from.

19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."


How are you to reconcile the above explicit command with 2 Tim 4:14? I know how to, but you have a paradoxical Paul in your mind I think. There are countless examples in the new testament speaking against temporal impreccatory prayers. I am not one to take 2 verses in a vaccuum and declare a dogmatic truth, for this just cannot be I am afraid.

As an aside, Paul also 'wished' himself accursed in Romans, so we must take this is just that. Hyperbole at its best. Or else he was praying and imprecation against himself which is an impossibility for one who was taken to the highest heaven to have the Gospel revealed to him.

"If any of the enemies of God's people belong to God's election, the Church's prayer against them giveth way to their conversion, and seeketh no more than that the judgement should follow them, only until they acknowledge their sin, turn, and seek God."

- David Dickson


The problem we have is stating that we have imprecatory pslams, when we do not. We have imprecations in the psalms. The amount is very limited and usually only a few verses of the whole. Our aim is to always pray for the righteousness of God to be seen on earth. Thy kingdom come..on earth is our prayer. We pray these prayers knowing full well that in the end the universal reign of God demands the eternal punishment of the wicked. The imprecatory psalms are the Old Testament expression of this godly attitude, nothing more and nothing less. Now when I speak of a progressive revelation, I do not mean it is from falsehood to truth, but from a partial to full revelation. Praying these words are never to be for personal revenge or some vendetta. They are only done to Glorify God. I just find it hard that man can do this without any personal reasons, and that is why I caution against them in this way.


There is a time of judgement, yet we should never be hasty in asking God for it.

“at the revelation of our Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus” (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

Something which may be worth considering -- the Psalms are covenant songs, and therefore include the element of blessing and cursing. It is notable that the curse is not always threatened against others, but sometimes against the Psalmists themselves when engaging in protestations of innocence, e.g. Ps. 7:4, 5; 137:5, 6. This demonstrates there is no personal vindictiveness in the imprecations, but a deep concern for the righteousness of God and individual integrity in the covenant. The imprecations therefore are a calling upon the Lord to manifest who are true and who are false covenanters. In the same way the apostle Paul sets forth cursing and blessing within the context of the New Testament church, 1 Cor. 16:22, 23.

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"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I have no need to grapple with those verses Robert, as if they contradict the point I made, since I never denied we must show love to neighbor nor did I advocate the praying of imprecations against our "personal" enemies. David had to "grapple" with the same idea, though. He was no more permitted to hate men than we are. I don't agree with the characterization that the nature of the Law changed from OT to NT believer. The end of the Law has always been love of God and love of neighbor and you need to grapple with that issue and not place the OT Saints in some sort of separate category where David was permitted to hate neighbor as some sort of "eschatological intrusion".

The verses quoted in Romans are in the Ot. In prov 25;
and Deut 32They existed with the psalms, not against them.
While we are not to take personal vengeance, we can and should pray against evildoer's and all who desire to profane holy things.
Many understand the prayer of those in Revelation 6:9-11 to have been answered in the judgement of 70AD.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
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Medford, N.Y.

6And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

7Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

12Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Again, you must be hearing what I am not saying Rich. I still do not see what Law vs grace has to do with this thread anyway.

BTW I do like the pithy saying "Eschalogical intrusion" now if that is all I can glean from your points, it is enough, I cant wait to use that when the time is right. Actually a good phrase to use againt post miller, dominionists!!!

Intrusion ethics is morally weak and logically contradictory. It is flawed on so many levels. It has been brutally refuted so many different times. And you keep identifying posters with dominionists, which is also flawed.

WHo did I identify as being a dominionist on this thread? All I said was I will just throw out that term regardless if it is flawed or right. I like the way the shoe fits against a dominionist, nothing more nothing less. I may even redefine it.

You linked, or so it appeared to me, postmillennialists and dominionists (I not being the former, nor really the latter).

So you get to use a term regardless of how accurate it is, just because you think the shoe fits? I might play too, except I would make it really fun. Watch:

1. Your post two posts ago employed Klinean rhetoric.
2. I know some Klineans, using your logic and terms, who support same-sex unions (consistently, too).
3. Therefore, your position is....

Don't go there.

Arnt all dominionists post mils? but not all post mils dominionists?

No. I am a case in point.

well then I publicaly stand corrected Jacob. But will still use the term as Ill define it when necesary

That's fine. I will also, when necessary, identify your position in conjunction with extremes of Klineanism--since I see similiarities.

Sounds star-trekish. But Ill shake on the deal. But id prefer Klineite.