I am preparing a sermon on Gen 21:8-20 and having a hard time with what to say about Hagar. I know Ishmael is reprobate.

What say y'all about Hagar?

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

I agree with God's choice.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

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Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

Sorry, Ben. Didn't mean to distract. Will delete if so desired.

Would expect nothing less Joshua

She saw YHVH and lived who knows.

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

From what I read in Galatians 4:21-31, I would be inclined to say no. Verse 30 stands out in particular:

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Ben Franks

I attend: Ketoctin Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
in Purcellville, Virginia
I'm a member of: Heartland Community Church (PCA)
in Wichita, Kansas
I blog here (along with my Dad): http://rrfranks.blogspot.com/
And I'm a student here: www.phc.edu

"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

She was an uneducated, low class heathen. As happens so often, she forgot her station, and mocked the one who lifted her up. She was punished, and humiliated, with the full approval of the man who had taken pleasure from her and to whom had given a son.

Yes, she was a real B. Uncouth, unloved, ignorant and stupid.

And she cried, and the Great God heard her, and sent His messenger to look after her, and comfort her, and bring her back into the covenant house hold. He didn't promise her the moon. This was tough love. She had a problem that needed to be dealt with, and had to learn to submit. She had to learn her place, like the Syrophoenician woman who needed to understand that leftovers were her portion.

But the Great God blessed her, and ordered her back into His covenant family. She had some rough edges to be knocked off, and she submitted to His will.

She was poor, ignorant, crude and stupid, and the God who looks after people like us blessed her.

Amen.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

She was always non-elect in my view. She was Sinai and not the free woman. All the temporal promises God were just that and no more. Cain saw God, too, was blessed and went to Hell so "seeing God" or talking to him tete-a-tete is not an indication of salvation.

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Bryan Wiley
Layman
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

"Seek the Kingdom of God first."

I don't think that the fact that Paul uses her allegorically (is that the right word?) to make a theological point in Galatians can really be used as a determinant of her relationship with God.

I don't know, when we only have a handful of passages that talk about her I think we have to take them all, including the Galatians passage, into consideration.

I've been confused about this subject for some time now. It is a good question, though perhaps unanswerable.

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I am inclined to think she was a convert.

I don't think the Galatians passage speaks to her personal spiritual state.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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I guess I may seem to be plagued with a case of schizophrenia after saying before that this question was "unanswerable" and now I'm agreeing with someone's answer. But it does seem to me (after further reflection) that any "hero of the faith" who wasn't point-blank condemned is probably a Christian.

Indeed, Paul seems to make a point of spelling out that this is an allegorical interpretation, not a comment on Hagar's spiritual state.

If Paul's argument in Galatians is that, as a slave, Hagar could not be part of the promise, and therefore Hagar could not be elect, then by inference no slave could be of the Elect. So why would Abraham circumcise his whole household, slaves included?

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

To me the verse that tends to indicate she was elect is Genesis 21:19:

I'm not a language scholar, but this terminology seems to be used throughout the Bible to indicate God opening hearts and minds to His truth, such as Luke 23:31 when Christ appears to the men on the road to Emmaus. Add in her earlier obedience when He told her to return to Sarah, and I think you have all the earmarks of a true believer: one called by God who responds with a life of obedience.

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18