Brother Ivan, you hold up one side of the shelter and I'll hold up the other. Anyone who cares to join us is welcome.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Visit the Eggus Blog

You are going around the issue of why it is banned.

Most importantly, intoxication is unbiblical. How many times in the bible does Paul tell us to "be alert"? Can you be alert on theological issues while high? Can you dodge the flaming arrows of satan while high?

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Andrew Cunningham
Casa Grande, AZ
Attending:Grace Covenant Church, ARBCA
Cross Centered Life

Dark Star!!

I have to second what JD Wiseman & Steve say about psychedelics, both from experience and from reading up on them. The ancient Greeks (from whom we get the word pharmakeia,) used ergot grown on a specific grass which grew at Eleusis (near Athens) in order to celebrate the Eleusinian mysteries. It was definitely a "gateway" drug in the sense Steve was referring to. I began my study of ancient Greek religion because of the desire to use these substances for spiritual purposes. God sovereignly intervened in my use of these things, (I was actually making a pretty powerful concoction of marijuana butter) to reach me and draw me to Christ, however I don't recomend them for that purpose. Medicinal marijuana seems alright where it's deemed legal.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Will do, Brother Bill, will do!

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Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
"Mankind is divided into two sorts: such as live according to man, and such as live according to God. These we call the two cities...The Heavenly City outshines Rome. There, instead of victory, is truth" — Augustine of Hippo

I know that the two of you aren't viewing being "sheltered" as a bad thing, but it made me think of something: I think one of the worst things to happen in modern evangelicalism has been the glorification of pre-conversion sinfulness. If you were just a "normal" kid, you shouldn't share with the youth group; if you had a drug history and a dabble of witchcraft, even better; and if you also had a questionable orientation and burned down some churches, then you're on a path to testimony super stardom.

I know its not prevalent in Reformed churches, but it certainly is in wider evangelicalism. I was always told to share my story alot, but nowadays people don't even know about my past unless it comes up somehow.

I wish evangelicalism would instead tell people that the shelter of Christ is a good thing; being out in the cold, rain, and snow just leaves you wet, sick, or both.

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Joshua Wiseman
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

Main Entry: er·got
Pronunciation: '&r-g&t, -"gät
Function: noun
Etymology: French, literally, ****'s spur
1 : the black or dark purple sclerotium of fungi (genus Claviceps) that occurs as a club-shaped body replacing the seed of a grass (as rye); also : a fungus bearing ergots
2 : a disease of rye and other cereals caused by an ergot fungus
3 a : the dried sclerotia of an ergot fungus grown on rye and containing several alkaloids (as ergonovine and ergotamine) b : any of such alkaloids used medicinally for their contractile effect on smooth muscle (as of the uterus and or blood vessels)

Never heard of Ergot, so I thought I'd post the definition. Again, I think it is a matter of eisegesis to suggest that the use of marijuana -- in every case -- is equatable with sorcery. I still insist that its use generally falls under all biblical prohibitions against dissipation, whether from alcohol or any other substance used for that purpose. As in a court of law I think intent matters (see Ergot above) and your buttery spread was for a purpose only a Rastafarian could appreciate. It was your desire that put you at odds with the truth and not the drug per se. Thankfully you say God intervened, but was that before or after buttering and ingesting your toast? I'm just wondering, because Steve was pretty insistent that God cannot intervene when under the influence of marijuana.

I also don't agree that legalization will usher in unprecedented demonic warfare, etc., etc. That's pure hysterics and reminds me of Conservatives who use AIDs as a means to promote abstinence as if HIV was another STD. There are plenty of good biblical reasons for a heterosexual not to engage in premarital sex and AIDs isn't one of them. FWIW and if you talk to any kid in a public High School, marijuana is defacto legal now as it was a long time ago when I was in High School (and then the drinking age was only 18). Prohibition is not the answer to the drug problem (or any intemperance problem as the 1920's should have taught us). The preaching of the gospel is -- and that is NOT to include that putrid, anemic Arminian version.

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Sean Gerety
Member
Calvary Presbyterian, PCA
Norfolk, VA

“I don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be normal I disconcert anyway." Robert Wyatt

“de facto legal” & “de facto moral” are the way those of the world – the lawless – justify themselves when they violate “the ordinance of man” (1 Peter 2:13 ff.) and God, or sanction others doing so.

What has this church-based lawlessness to do with Biblical holiness?

Sean, have you shared your views on drugs with the pastor, and with the youth pastor or leader of your church? Or are you flying “stealth”? You’re their headache.

Can’t continue this conversation, am off to Nairobi and from there north to the Sudanese border this evening, to teach Sudanese church leaders for a brief period. See y’all when I get back – or sooner if I have time and a computer connection.

Steve

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Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

Non sequitur and another great example of why your argument fails and consists more in pious sounding rhetoric than biblical substance. Legality and morality are not equivalent concepts. There are thousands of examples that disprove your point. It is perfectly legal in most countries for women to kill their children provided the critters still reside in their wombs, yet abortion is anything but moral. More to the point, sorcery and all forms of witchcraft are perfectly legal right now in America and protected by the First Amendment, but, again, hardly moral. I do not sanction drug use. I just don't think it should be illegal.

Church-based lawlessness? Hardly. What it has to do with is the proper role of gov't, which is not to protect people from themselves. The role of gov't is to punish actual crimes and not to try and control people in an attempt to stop potential crimes from occurring. Since you say you admire John Robbins, I recommend you pick up his latest book, Freedom and Capitalism. Oh, and FYI, I spoke to John and he's in favor of drug decriminalization for many of the reasons I've already discussed.

No, I haven't because they haven't asked. If you think they need to be informed of what you call my "church-based lawlessness," I'd be happy to give you their number so you can tell them yourself. I'd be happy to share my views with them as I am with you. I'd love to discuss my view of the proper and biblical role of gov't and my belief that drug prohibition is a colossal failure for the same reasons Prohibition in the Twenties was a colossal failure. I'd love to tell them why I do not think more draconian drug laws and authoritarian gov't, two things which you seem to prefer, are sound biblical answers to the drug problem.

Finally, I would be happy to tell them that I do not believe that decriminalization of drugs would make sorcery the norm, Charlie Mansons common, usher in unprecedented occult warfare, and make Hell any more manifest in the world than it already is. Since it would free up considerable and much needed prison space and eliminate much of the gang and drug related violence already occurring due to prohibition, I'll tell them I think decriminalization will be a positive blessing.

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Sean Gerety
Member
Calvary Presbyterian, PCA
Norfolk, VA

“I don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be normal I disconcert anyway." Robert Wyatt

Positive blessing? It sounds to me like you are looking for a quick legal toke. You still haven't answered my question. Being alert is a biblical command, and you are avoiding the issue. Paul commands us in many places to not only be alert but to be sober. In order to battle fortresses that are within the church or dodging the flaming arrows of satan, you must be sober minded. Can you be sober minded while high? You are looking for a direct command to not toke on the dope. Look what scripture says about your mind. It's plain and clear.

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Andrew Cunningham
Casa Grande, AZ
Attending:Grace Covenant Church, ARBCA
Cross Centered Life

Well, then, I suspect you haven't really understood a word I've written. The positive blessing is that ending drug prohibition would eliminate much of the gang related violence and similar societal corruptions that relate to this ongoing and futile "war against drugs." The answer to the drug problem is not more laws, or even the existing laws, it's the return to the clear preaching of the Gospel. Something almost unheard of in this country, despite all the religiosity on TV, radio and in books. The biblical faith is an anachronism and instead we have hucksters and Jeeebus hawkers fleecing suckers by the thousands. Similarly, I've argued the biblical role of gov't isn't to protect us from ourselves, and, besides, these laws have not worked and anyone who thinks they have has his head buried.

I didn't know it was a question and besides you're wrong since I most wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. I just don't agree that the prohibition of drugs is a legitimate role of government.

Again, you clearly have not understood me at all. I agree that commands against dissipation and, conversely, commands to be alert apply to the use of any substance, not just illegal ones. The point that was under discussion is that Steve doesn't agree and instead argues that drug use, particularly marijuana use, is to engage in sorcery and universally falls under these biblical prohibitions. Go back and read his posts. Read mine again too since you clearly did not understand them.

I realize that the lazy argument is that anyone who is for legalization is also in favor of a legal toke, but like much of Steve's argument, this too doesn't follow.

What I do not agree with is that ending prohibition will unleash hell on earth and that all drug use, specifically marijuana use, necessarily entails sorcery. It certainly may at times (Meg Thomas made this point above), but it also may not. Steve says I'm guilty of great evil if I don't agree with him on this point. This is Steve's argument in a nutshell and I've argued that his assertions are the result of an invalid inference from Scripture and his attempt to universalize his own subjective experience. If his argument is valid, he certainly hasn't demonstrated it, that is all.

FWIW, I smoked marijuana and it was never in any occult attempt to attain knowledge or a higher state of being or for any other stupid Sixties-Hippy myth. I and the people I knew smoked pot to get stoned. Period. My guess is that this is the case today as well and Meg's and Steve's experience, while at one time perhaps the norm, is the exception today.

In short, his view is not a necessary inference from Scripture, whereas yours is.

__________________
Sean Gerety
Member
Calvary Presbyterian, PCA
Norfolk, VA

“I don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be normal I disconcert anyway." Robert Wyatt

Someone remind me to buy stock in Waffle House if a bill goes before Congress to legalize mary jane...

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

But isn't it a contradiction then to say, "Legalize it!" and disagree with it?



That's a bunch of non-sense hokie pokie.

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Andrew Cunningham
Casa Grande, AZ
Attending:Grace Covenant Church, ARBCA
Cross Centered Life

Not at all. I disagree with a lot of things which are perfectly legal. I suppose that's the price of freedom. Of course, elect me dictator and I'll fix all that.

I couldn't agree more, but I suppose you're flying stealth too.

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Sean Gerety
Member
Calvary Presbyterian, PCA
Norfolk, VA

“I don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be normal I disconcert anyway." Robert Wyatt

Stealth? LOL. Umm.... if you call a good beat down stealth.



WOOOOHOOOOO! DOWN EVIL DRUGS! DOWN!

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Andrew Cunningham
Casa Grande, AZ
Attending:Grace Covenant Church, ARBCA
Cross Centered Life

Hmm.. I do see Andrew's point. I agree that a christian should not ardently push to legalize something in which he knows contradicts the word of God; for example, I'm not going to toss my vote in for Gay Marriage even if this country decides that Gay people should have the right to be recognized as married. At the same time I understand your point as well Sean; however, I think it's a bit dangerous. In a sense not speaking out against something that is immoral (in terms of abstaining from voting against it) could be portrayed as your condonement of it. But at the same time, given the country we do live in and the role this particular form of government plays in the lives of its citizens, perhaps abstaining from voting against the issue while at the same time condemning the immorality of the particular issue is the best option.I'm not sure if that made sense, but those are my from a political theory major. A little bit of J.S Mill's "On Liberty" is came to mind as I thought of this.

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Nikki Edmond
Berean Christian Assembly (Reformed Baptist)
Tucson, AZ
HaveATulip Chat Room for Reformed Believers
Principle and Practice Blog
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

It comes down to differentiating between sins and crimes. What does the government have the right to do? They should legislate against what God considers crimes and then enforce penalties for breaking the law with blind justice. The problem is they've crossed over and become the morality police dictating what people can say and everything else. We all agree that for children to speak dissrestful to their parents is sin and a violation of the 5th commandment. Should govenment pass a law that punishes the child? If not why not? It is an overstepping of their jurisdiction/sphere into the sphere of the family and indirectly the church. Now what if the government had already overstepped that boundary and legislated against backtalking. Would asking the government to repeal that law mean that a person condones disrespectful kids and that a mass uprising of rebellious youths (thinking Skid Row - Youth Gone Wild...) swarm the land killing all parents? No. Families and churches would have to do their responsibility of nurture and discipline. I think that is what Sean is arguing for. Drugs bad. Government overstepping boundaries bad. Don't correct one bad thing with another.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

For just one fleeting second I asked myself, "why are his thoughts scrambled?"

Just for a second.

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Gerry Winebrenner
member Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Janesville WI

Psalm 95:6-7
Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!
For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.

.

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Joshua Wiseman
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

Very close. Drugs bad. Gov't overstepping boundaries exceedingly worse.

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Sean Gerety
Member
Calvary Presbyterian, PCA
Norfolk, VA

“I don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be normal I disconcert anyway." Robert Wyatt

Hello Sean,

I'm in a primitive place for the time being, but at