The PuritanBoard  

Go Back   The PuritanBoard > The Scriptures > OT Historical Books

OT Historical Books Discussion of texts from Genesis - Esther
Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One! (Deut. 6:4)

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 09:28 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
The demon Azazel and the Day of Atonement

Did the Hebrews give the scapegoat to a demon Azazel? Why is this demon seemingly associated with the Day of Atonement?
__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 09:34 AM
turmeric's Avatar
Megerator
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 10,723
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 1,738
Thanked 953 Times in 794 Posts
And there, my friend, you've hit on one problem with the ESV.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Azazel was translated as "scapegoat" in the King James Bible(1611). James 1’s translators derived the word scapegoat from William Tyndale’s translation of the Bible about 1530, which split azazel into the component parts ez ozel: literally, the "goat that departs", hence "the goat that escapes", or, for short, "(e)scape goat.” Since this goat, with the sins of the people placed on it, is then sent over a cliff or driven into the wilderness to perish (perhaps at the hands of the desert demon Azazel), the word "scapegoat" has come to mean a person, often innocent, who is blamed or punished for the sins, crimes or sufferings of others.
__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Last edited by turmeric; 08-18-2008 at 09:52 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 09:55 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
What does the Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint say for Azazel? Is it ez ozel, the goat that departs, or did the english translators falsely split the word? Anyone know the textual evidence or why the ESV did this?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:07 AM
TimV's Avatar
Puritanboard Botanist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oceano, CA, USA
Posts: 5,476
Thanks: 1,890
Thanked 2,416 Times in 1,142 Posts
a. The word lz)z( characterizes the goat itself and is a combination of two Hebrew words: lzw) z( or lz) z(2 which can be rendered as ‘departing goat’, hence ‘(e)scapegoat’. This is a very early interpretation, already found in the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word lz)z(l in Leviticus 16 as tw|= a)popompai/w| or tou= a)popompai/ou ‘for the one sent away’ (vv. 8, 10), ei)j th_n a)popomph_n a)fh/sei ‘for the one sent away for release’ (v. 10) and lz)z(l ry(#h as to_n xi/maron to_n diestalme/non ei)j a!fesin ‘the goat which is determined for release’ (v. 26). The same interpretation is reflected in the Vulgate which renders it as caper emissarius3.
Biblica 81 (2000) Jacqueline C.R. DE ROO
__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:16 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
Why the resurgence of scholars saying that this is Azazel?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:30 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
Many modern biblical scholars believe that the word lz)z( is the name of a demon on the basis of the following arguments:

1. According to Lev 16,8, Aaron is supposed to cast lots for two goats: one ‘for YHWH’ and another ‘for Azazel’. The first goat is for a supernatural being, therefore it is likely that the second one is too7.

2. A direct contrast seems to be made between the destinations of the two goats and between YHWH and Azazel. Demons are opponents of YHWH.

3. The goat designated for Azazel is driven into the wilderness, which is often described as the abode of demons (Lev 17,7; Isa 13,21-22; 34,11-15; Tob 8,3; Matt 12,43).

4. Post-biblical Jewish interpreters identified Azazel with Asael, the leader of the fallen angels mentioned in 1 Enoch (8,1; 9,6; 10,4-8; 13,1; compare 4Q180 1 7-8)




If this translation IS correct what it give us any major theological problems, especially in light that in church discipline an unrepetnant sinner is said to be turned over to Satan?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
Did any of the medieval theologians who believed in the ransom theory of the atonement (the Christ paid a debt to Satan in His atonement) use this concept as evidence for advancing their false view?


Also, is this another reason why Enoch was counted as non-canonical. Enoch writes about Azazel and Jude quotes Enoch when Enoch is true, but apparently not everything Enoch said was true. I find it curious that these strange writings of Enoch were revered by the Jews but never counted as Scripture.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:59 AM
Contra_Mundum's Avatar
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CentralLakeMI
Posts: 5,190
Thanks: 74
Thanked 3,365 Times in 1,190 Posts
I think it is a reflection of hyper-BT and liberal attitudes about the Bible and its "construction." Liberal BTers believe in multiple "theologies" of many writers and persons in the Bible. They believe that biblical religion in its final, canonical form is the product of development and borrowing. Noah? Just Enuma Elish rewritten for a Jewish audience, or both a product of an earlier myth. Etc.

Seems to me that this is one of many verbal plays or puns that the Bible is riddled with. Suppose there was some ages-old myth about some desert-demon named of Azazel. Who CARES if it has any basis in spirit-reality? Moses mocks and belittles every false religion he knows of, all under inspiration. God mocks the gods of Egypt in the plagues.

So, would it be odd if Moses made a play on words here (assuming he did... what if the Azazel myth is "younger" than Moses and the Exodus?!?), and gave the second goat a designation that sounded like a false god or demonic power? The text tells us there were two goats. It seems to me that assuming Moses would give some "claim" to a demon or the Prince of demons goes contrary to the very thing biblical religion was designed to do--reduce the power and claims of any other god or power to zero.

So, let's assume for a moment that this is a word play. Lets assume that Moses may have even had THE Azazel in mind. When "Azazel" has been obliterated by time and the power of Jehovah, is it more, or less, explanatory of the biblical text to render the language according to the "meaning" of Azazel, or with some obscure Denominative?

I think the KJV translators, even if they didn't know about this twist at all--a big assumption if you ask me--did everyone a favor.
__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI

Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer
Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12

When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:

Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
--Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Contra_Mundum For This Useful Post:
Pergamum (08-18-2008), turmeric (08-18-2008)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2008, 11:11 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,402
Thanks: 2,682
Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,470 Posts
It does seem that Moses consciously made many parrelells with ancient near east myths around him. Was this an ancient example of contextualization or, as you say, mocking the falsity around him. Go ahead and have your sea-God, Jehovah will crush Leviathan?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2002-2008 PuritanBoard.com
Hosted by WebsiteMaven - helping ministries with web hosting advice, reviews, and design.
67 Westminster Abbey © Confessional Presbyterian Presses - used with permission.
Add Our Custom Button to your Google Toolbar

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69