David and his census idea

Pergamum · #1 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 10:18 AM

Who gave him that idea? God or Satan? Or David?

How do these things interact?

Can the devil put thoughts into our heads? How did he tempt David to number the people then? Is God an accomplice to sin?

InevitablyReformed · #2 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 02:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Pergamum

Who gave him that idea? God or Satan? Or David?

How do these things interact?

Can the devil put thoughts into our heads? How did he tempt David to number the people then? Is God an accomplice to sin?

Funny, my wife and I were pondering this recently.

TimV · #3 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 04:10 PM

WCF chapter 5

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

**py3ak** · #4 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 06:38 PM

God's decree lay back of it all. The devil worked on David's pride to promote the census. God gave him a witness against in the unlikely person of Joab, but David was obstinate.

John Brown raises the question as to what God decreed with regard to the sinfulness of actions (as opposed to the matter and goodness of them). The answer:
"To permit, bound, and over-rule it to his own glory."

So no, God is neither the author of nor the accomplice to sin.

Pergamum · #5 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 07:05 PM

In what way did the Lord move David and in what way did the Devil move David?

Any links to commentaries?

**py3ak** · #6 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 07:07 PM

I would say that the devil, because of his own iniquity, moved David (who was movable because of his sinfulness). God had decreed that that action would take place. I'll let the Librarian give you the links!

Pergamum · #7 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 08:10 PM

Oh Mr. Librarian!!!!!

VirginiaHuguenot · #8 (**permalink**) 10-13-2008, 08:32 PM

Westminster Confession of Faith:

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Section 5.4.—The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men, [Rom 11:32-34; 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chron 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22-23; 1 Chron 10:4,13-14; 2 Sam 16:10; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28] and that not by a bare permission, [Acts 14:16] but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, [Ps 76:10; 2 Kings 19:28] and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; [Gen 50:20; Isa 10:6-7,12] yet so as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God; who being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin. [James 1:13-14,17; 1 John 2:16; Ps 50:21]

Section 5.5.—The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; [2 Chron 32:25-26,31; 2 Sam 24:1] and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends. [2 Cor 12:7-9; Ps 73; Ps 77:1,10,12; Mark 14:66-72; John 21:15,17]

Fisher's Catechism:

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Q. 106.5. When may God be said to lead his people into temptation permissively?

A. When he suffers them to be assaulted by the tempter, and, at the same time, withholds those aids of grace, which would prevent their compliance with the temptation, as in the case of David's numbering the people, 2 Sam 24:1, compared with 1 Chron 21:1.

Q. 106.10. From whence do all temptations to sin spring, or take their rise?

A. All of them flow from "Satan, 1 Chron 21:1; the world, Luke 21:34; and the flesh, which are ready powerfully to draw us aside and insnare us, James 1:14." [LC 195]

Matthew Poole on 2 Sam. 24.1:

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2 Sam 24:1. Again, to wit, after the former tokens of his anger, such as the three years' famine, 2 Sam 21. He moved David he: who? Either, 1. Satan, as is expressed, 1 Chron 21:1. Or, 2. God; who is said, in like manner, to stir up Saul against David, 1 Sam 26:19, and to turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate his people, Ps 105:25, and to make men to err from his ways, Isa 63:17, and to send strong delusions, etc., and to harden their hearts. All which expressions are not so to be understood, as if God did work these sinful dispositions; which neither was necessary, because they are naturally in every man's heart, nor possible for the holy God to do; but because he permits them, and withdraws his grace and all restraints and hinderances from them, and giveth occasions and advantages to them; and directs their thoughts to such objects as may indeed be innocently thought of, which yet he knows they will wickedly abuse; and give them up to Satan, who he knows will deceive and entice them to such and such sins; which, being tempted to do by Satan, and being effected by their own wicked hearts, he so orders and overrules, that they shall be punishments for their former sins. Against them, i.e. for Israel's punishment. To say, or, saying. For this may be referred, either, 1. To God, of whom the same expression is used 2 Sam 16:10, The Lord said to Shimei, Curse David; which in both places is not to be understood of any command or impulse of God, but of his secret providence disposing things in manner here above expressed. Or, 2. To David; he moved David to say, to wit, to Joab, as he did, 2 Sam 24:2.

Poole on 1 Chron. 21.1:

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1 Chron 21:1. Satan stood up, Heb. stood, to wit, before the Lord and his tribunal to accuse David and Israel, and to beg God's permission to tempt David to number the people. Standing is the accuser's posture before men's tribunals; and consequently the Holy Scripture (which useth to speak of God, and of the things of God, after the manner of men, to bring them down to our capacities) elsewhere represents Satan in this posture, as 1 Kings 22:21; Zech 3:1. And so this agrees with 2 Sam 24:1, where the Lord is said to move David, i.e. to give Satan commission or permission to move him; for otherwise God tempteth no man, James 1:13. But of this, and of this whole chapter, and of the variations and seeming contradictions between this narrative and that in Samuel, see my notes on 2 Sam 24.

Matthew Henry on 2 Sam. 24.1:

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2 Sam 24:1-9

Here we have,

I. The orders which David gave to Joab to number the people of Israel and Judah, 2 Sam 24:1-2. Two things here seem strange:—1. The sinfulness of this. What harm was there in it? Did not Moses twice number the people without any crime? Does not political arithmetic come in among the other policies of a prince? Should not the shepherd know the number of his sheep? Does not the Son of David know all his own by name? Might not he make good use of this calculation? What evil has he done, if he do this? Answer, It is certain that it was a sin, and a great sin; but where the evil of it lay is not so certain. (1.) Some think the fault was that he numbered those that were under twenty years old if they were but of stature and strength able to bear arms, and that this was the reason why this account was not enrolled, because it was illegal, 1 Chron 27:23-24. (2.) Others think the fault was that he did not require the half-shekel, which was to be paid for the service of the sanctuary whenever the people were numbered, as a ransom for their souls, Exod 30:12. (3.) Others think that he did it with a design to impose a tribute upon them for himself, to be put into his treasury, and this by way of poll, so that when he knew their numbers he could tell what it would amount to. But nothing of this appears, nor was David ever a raiser of taxes. (4.) This was the fault, that he had no orders from God to do it, nor was there any occasion for the doing of it. It was a needless trouble both to himself and to his people. (5.) Some think that it was an affront to the ancient promise which God made to Abraham, that his seed should be innumerable as the dust of the earth; it savoured of distrust of that promise, or a design to show that it was not fulfilled in the letter of it. He would number those of whom God had said that they could not be numbered. Those know not what they do that go about to disprove the word of God. (6.) That which was the worst thing in numbering the people was that David did it in the pride of his heart, which was Hezekiah's sin in showing his treasures to the ambassadors. [1.] It was a proud conceit of his own greatness in having the command of so numerous a people, as if their increase, which was to be ascribed purely to the blessing of God, had been owing to any conduct of his own. [2.] It was a proud confidence in his own strength. By publishing among the nations the number of his people, he thought to appear the more formidable, and doubted not that, if he should have any war, he should overpower his enemies with the multitude of his forces, trusting in God only. God judges not of sin as we do. What appears to us harmless, or at least but a small offence, may be a great sin in the eye of God, who sees men's principles, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. But his judgment, we are sure, is according to truth.

2. The spring from which it is here said to arise is yet more strange, 2 Sam 24:1. It is not strange that the anger of the Lord should be kindled against Israel. There was cause enough for it. They were unthankful for the blessings of David's government, and strangely drawn in to take part with Absalom first and afterwards with Sheba. We have reason to think that their peace and plenty made them secure and sensual, and that God was therefore displeased with them. But that, in this displeasure, he should move David to number the people is very strange. We are sure that God is not the author of sin; he tempts no man: we are told (1 Chron 21:1) that Satan provoked David to number Israel. Satan, as an enemy, suggested it for a sin, as he put it into the heart of Judas to betray Christ. God, as righteous Judge, permitted it, with a design, from this sin of David, to take an occasion to punish Israel for other sins, for which he might justly have punished them without this. But, as before he brought a famine upon them for the sin of Saul, so now a pestilence for the sin of David, that princes may from these instances learn, when the judgments of God are abroad, to suspect that their sins are the ground of the controversy, and may therefore repent and reform themselves, which should have a great influence upon national repentance and reformation, and that people may learn to pray for those in authority, that God would keep them from sin, because, if they sin, the kingdom smarts.

Henry on 1 Chron. 21.1:

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1 Chron 21:1-6

Numbering the people, one would think, was no bad thing. Why should not the shepherd know the number of his flock? But God sees not as man sees. It is plain it was wrong in David to do it, and a great provocation to God, because he did it in the pride of his heart; and there is no sin that has in it more of contradiction and therefore more of offence to God than pride. The sin was David's; he alone must bear the blame of it. But here we are told,

I. How active the tempter was in it (1 Chron 21:1): Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to do it. It is said (2 Sam 24:1) that the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David to do it. The righteous judgments of God are to be observed and acknowledged even in the sins and unrighteousness of men. We are sure that God is not the author of sin—he tempts no man; and therefore, when it is said that he moved David to do it, it must be explained by what is intimated here, that, for wise and holy ends, he permitted the devil to do it. Here we trace this foul stream to its foundation. That Satan, the enemy of God and all good, should stand up against Israel, is not strange; it is what he aims at, to weaken the strength, diminish the numbers, and eclipse the glory of God's Israel, to whom he is Satan, a sworn adversary. But that he should influence David, the man of God's own heart to do a wrong thing, may well be wondered at. One would think him one of those whom the wicked one touches not. No, even the best saints, till they come to heaven, must never think themselves out of the reach of Satan's temptations. Now, when Satan meant to do Israel a mischief, what course did he take? He did not move God against them to destroy them (as Job, Job 2:3), but he provoked David, the best friend they had, to number them, and so to offend God, and set him against them. Note, 1. The devil does us more mischief by tempting us to sin against our God than he does by accusing us before our God. He destroys none but by their own hands, 2. The greatest spite he can do to the church of God is to tempt the rulers of the church to pride; for none can conceive the fatal consequences of that sin in all, especially in church-rulers. You shall not be so, Luke 22:26.

Thomas Manton, Exposition of the Lord's Prayer, "And Lead Us not into Temptation," in Works, Vol. 1, pp. 206, 225:

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[3.] He doth it by internal suggestion: 1 Chron 21:1, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel;" that is, by internal suggestion. John 13:2, "The devil put it into the heart of Judas to betray him." He haunts and pesters the hearts of men by vain thoughts and carnal imaginations. So "the god of this world" is said to "blind their minds," 2 Cor 4:4.
...
First, We cannot be tempted without the will of God. That God hath a providence in and about temptations, is clear from the scripture: Matt 4:1, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil." The Holy Spirit had a hand in it, as well as the evil spirit. So, 2 Sam 24:1, "God moved David to number Israel and Judah;" but in 1 Chron 21:1, it is said, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." Satan, he cannot tempt without leave from God. As a lion cannot stir out of his cage, until the keeper brings him out, so the devil, this roaring lion, is held by the irresistible chains of God's providence, and cannot stir until God brings him out.

Thomas Manton, Sermon 9 of 18 on 2 Thess 2:11-12, in Works, Vol. 3, p. 88:

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(2.) Not only by desertion, but by tradition, delivering them up to the power of Satan: 2 Cor 4:4, "The God of this world hath blinded their eyes." Satan, as the executioner of God's curse, worketh upon the corrupt nature of man, and deceiveth them. It is said, 1 Chron 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel;" but it is said, 2 Sam 24:1, "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." How shall we reconcile these two places? God gave him over to be tempted by Satan—by God as a judge, by Satan as an executioner. Temptations to sin come immediately from the devil, but they are governed by God for holy and righteous ends. So again, 1 Kings 22:22, the evil spirit had leave and commission to be a lying spirit in Ahab's prophets: "Go forth and do so, and thou shalt prevail with him." There is a permissive intention, not an affective. When they grieve his Spirit, God withdraweth and leaveth them to the evil spirit, who works by their fleshly and worldly lusts, and then they are easily seduced who prefer worldly things before heavenly.

See also Andrew Fuller, The Harmony of Scripture: Or an Attempt to Reconcile Various Passages, Apparently Contradictory, 1:669-671, 674-675.