Aphrodisiacs for Cattle? The tree branches in Genesis chapter 30

Pergamum · #1 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 01:59 PM

What is happening here?

Quote:

37And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods.

38And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

39And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

40And Jacob did separate the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the ringstraked, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not unto Laban's cattle.

41And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods.

Pergamum · #2 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 02:43 PM

"Born Again Fundamentalist Christianity and The Bible - Hope or Hoax ??? Jacob and Genetics"

Here is one atheistic explanation.

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #3 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:10 PM

This passage simply is commending Jacob for his faithful use of means before the Lord. He believed the Lord wold bless him over Laban, and so he made use of means in order to receive that blessing. The use of means is not unlawful, but trusting even in lawful means is a sin (See the Larger Catechism on what is forbidden in the first commandment).

If one is looking for a "cause and effect relationship" between conception in the presence of striped boughs and bearing speckled and striped cattle, remember that even our diligent use of the best means at our disposal is not always blessed by the Lord, who is pleased to work according to, above, or apart from means. Harboring certainty in "cause and effect relationships" speaks against God's sovereignty. We ought to take care not to trust in means, but in God, who is able to bring about His most holy will through lawful means, and does command us in the use of them.

Pergamum · #4 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:12 PM

Jacob appeared to be using local superstitions as his means.

TimV · #5 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Gen 30:35 But that day Laban removed the male goats that were striped and spotted, and all the female goats that were speckled and spotted, every one that had white on it, and every lamb that was black, and put them in the charge of his sons.

In the article linked to above, the dummy complains that people in the OT didn't have any understanding of genetics. If so, why did Laban take away all those with the recessive markings

?

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #6 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:21 PM

Oh, you mean like Aspirin to relieve a headache? Or a coronary bypass to cure arterial blockage? We call it "superstition" because we can see no relationship, because we're "enlightened". The point is that all our "cause and effect relationships" are meaningless apart from the Lord's working in them, if He should so will. 500 years from now, should the Lord tarry, the use of Aspirin might be seen as "superstition" by our posterity.

TimV · #7 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Jacob appeared to be using local superstitions as his means.

Could be, or the combination of botanical chemicals he put in the animal's water really did have an effect, or there's another reason like the Hebrew not yet being properly understood, or even something more complicated like the Septuagint being more accurate in some places than the Hebrew. For instance, when I read

Quote:

And Jacob separated the lambs, and set before the sheep a speckled ram

It makes perfect sense to me. That's what I would have done, and through observation Jacob had at least as much practical genetic lore as I do. The fact that I don't understand the other parts just means that I don't understand the other parts.

Pergamum · #8 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:41 PM

How does the LXX differ?

It appears that Jacob was following a genetic strategy of sorts, but it appears that Jacob believed that seeing stripes while mating produced striped children? Is that the proper reading of the text?

I am open to the possibility that Jacob was using un-scientific methodology and that he had wrong views of genetics. This does not hurt inerrancy, because his success was due to God and not his methods anyway, as he says later. God was pleased even to bless Jacob despite his craftiness, and this craftiness might have included using old wives tales and local false views in order to out-produce his master.

TimV · #9 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 03:59 PM

Without knowing either language, while the Hebrew seems to say

Quote:

the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped,

the Greek doesn't make it so clearly cause and effect

Quote:

So the cattle conceived at the rods, and the cattle brought forth young speckled, and streaked and spotted with ash-coloured

Pergamum · #10 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 04:22 PM

Thanks.

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #11 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 04:55 PM

BTW Pergie, love the quotation from D. Livingstone

Pergamum · #12 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 04:58 PM

Thanks again.

If you were responding to questions about this passage, what would be the main points that you would make? What is thebest pastoral response for any member who is getting disturbed over Jacob's breeding practices here?

***Contra_Mundum*** · #13 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:10 PM

I essentially agree entirely with Rev.Ruddell.

I will go so far as to say I think Jacob not only acted in faith, but we have every reason to believe that what he did, he did in obedience, possibly at divine direction.

Which would make the "connection" an explicit faith-connection. IMO, Jacob's extensive husbandry experience probably would have caused him to be skeptical about this unnatural manner of increasing the fecundity of his flocks. But he acted in faith--not of superstition but of God's promise.

The sign could have been for his benefit, to increase his faith. Or it ever could have been as a sign to the faithless Laban and his sons.

There need be no natural connections at all, any more than in this event:

Quote:

And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed. And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim

2Ki.6:4-6
Is there any naturalistic connection between throwing a stick in the pool at the edge of Jordan, and the iron floating? No reason to suppose there is, and plenty of experience to say there isn't.

Moses' hands stayed up, first on his own power, and later with the aid of Aaron and Hur. What natural connection is there between Moses upraised hands, and the flow of the battle? (Ex.17:10-12)

Examples in the Bible can be multiplied. Even accounting for outmoded notions and expectations being used by God, we really should see the blessings of God on his people as acts of his loving providence towards them.

God moves in a mysterious way
His wonders to perform;
He plants his footsteps in the sea,
And rides upon the storm.

Deep in unfathomable mines
Of never-failing skill
He treasures up his bright designs,
And works his sovereign will.

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
The clouds ye so much dread
Are big with mercy, and shall break
In blessings on your head.

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence
He hides a smiling face.

His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour;
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flow'r.

Blind unbelief is sure to err,
And scan his work in vain.
God is his own interpreter,
And he will make it plain.

Pergamum · #14 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:28 PM

Thanks. So, it is established that Jacob might have been using unnatural means.

But you are saying that he was using unnatural means perhaps due to divine direction, rather than his own cunnning and use of local wive's tales? At this point was Jacob saved do you think? He appeared still to be cunning and a trickser and the general momentum of the story seems to be that Jacob continually tries to profit through trickery until the Lord stops him finally and changes his name.

JBaldwin · #15 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:38 PM

We just had a sermon on this a few weeks ago on our way through Genesis. I love what our pastor said about this. It is unclear what Jacob was doing here. Laban changed Jacob's wages 10 times in those few years. There simply was not enough time for Jacob's method to work whether it was superstition or genetics. The point is God increased Jacob's flock even though the wages was changed so many times, and Jacob walked away wealthy. God was keeping His promise to bless Jacob.

***Contra_Mundum*** · #16 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:44 PM

Perg,
I think God clearly changed Jacob's heart at the beginning of the crisis he brought on himself. I do not know if there was a complete regenerating work in his heart prior to his being sent away from home, but I am sure he was just as outwardly rebellious (in his own way) as his brother. So, his conniving for the birthright and the blessing was a step down the path to apostasy. I do not believe he was after spiritual good in the earlier incidents.

I believe God revealed himself to him at Bethel as the God of Promise (the night of the Ladder), and Jacob first hoped savingly in him there. He was far from the sanctified person he ought to be, but he was just starting to follow the Lord. We should take his pilgrimage for what it was--a learning process.

I think God put him under Laban, who was twice the trickster he was and an ungodly man. He gave him a taste of his own medicine. I think Jacob was naturally shrewd, but I would say that after Bethel we don't see Jacob lying or stealing to his advantage. I don't agree that there is this downward trend in the story until Peniel.

Pergamum · #17 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:47 PM

Thanks, yes, I agree. Thanks for those insights. So, it would be inconsistent for Jacob to be resorting back to his old trickery...NOW he would be prospering due to God?

***Contra_Mundum*** · #18 (**permalink**) 07-25-2009, 05:57 PM

I believe Jacob and Laban are a mini-study in contrasts. Laban is what Jacob could be without faith, without election and salvation, in short without God.

Laban tries to use Jacob--a man being blessed by a "higher power"--to his own material advantage. But he cannot make God's elect his slave forever. God will free his slave from bondage, and bring him out with the wealth of his taskmaster.

Remember, this salvation history is part of Israel's heritage. The family history is penned in this form for all posterity by Moses. Israel should be seeing that there were precursors to their Exodus deliverance in their fathers' stories. Laban comes chasing Jacob later, just like Pharaoh the Israelites, and in the end he is frustrated.