Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not? - Page 5

Neogillist · #**161** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Although the popish mass is rather idolatrous, I think that some evangelical worship services nowadays have managed to exceed them in their idolatry. Just look at movements like Vineyards, where people start barking like dogs, quaking or speaking in tongues or jumping, dancing with flags; all of these things being done without any reverence whatsoever as if Jesus was their penpal. In a mass at least, there is some level of reverence given to worship. I personally define idolatry (and I think that fits the scriptural definition of it) to be any distorted/unscriptural notion of God. Thus singing any song which convey a false notion in regard to the nature of God is idolatry. The Israelites made themselves a golden calf desiring to portray God or "their gods" in a way that suited their carnal minds, and ultimately this is something that we can all be charged guilty of. Lacking reverence is worship is also idolatry like I said because it belittles God. Overall, the papists may be idolaters, but we are all idolaters to certain degrees and various ways; none of us can truly worship God perfectly or please Him in our worship apart from the satisfaction of Christ.

Stephen · #**162** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 10:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

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Originally Posted by Stephen

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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

What do you mean by a 'few?" Well then your reputation preceedes you in the matter with them honestly. Could it be you are as polemical with family as you are on here at times?

What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.

Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.

Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery

There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.

Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a presby attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.

Stephen · #**163** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Galatians220

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Originally Posted by kvanlaan

Why, in the photo with Bob, does Joe have a warty/wrinkly left hand and a heck of a manicure on the other..... ??????

I am not implying any disingenuousness on Bob's part with regards to the photo. I just think there's more to Joe than meets the eye.

"L'Affaire Bernard Cardinal Law" may be a stark indicator of Joe Ratzy's, oh, capacity for duplicity, among other things, so, yeah, there is more there than meets the (superficial) eye.

Joseph Cardinal Bernardin (late archbishop of Chicago) was another piece of work to whom the Ratman was "more than kind."

Yucky, yucky stuff...

Margaret

Yes, Rome historically is good at covering up the sins of its clergy. It is an evil and false system because it is false religion.

Stephen · #**164** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neogillist

Although the popish mass is rather idolatrous, I think that some evangelical worship services nowadays have managed to exceed them in their idolatry. Just look at movements like Vineyards, where people start barking like dogs, quaking or speaking in tongues or jumping, dancing with flags; all of these things being done without any reverence whatsoever as if Jesus was their penpal. In a mass at least, there is some level of reverence given to worship. I personally define idolatry (and I think that fits the scriptural definition of it) to be any distorted/unscriptural notion of God. Thus singing any song which convey a false notion in regard to the nature of God is idolatry. The Israelites made themselves a golden calf desiring to portray God or "their gods" in a way that suited their carnal minds, and ultimately this is something that we can all be charged guilty of. Lacking reverence is worship is also idolatry like I said because it belittles God. Overall, the papists may be idolaters, but we are all idolaters to certain degrees and various ways; none of us can truly worship God perfectly or please Him in our worship apart from the satisfaction of Christ.

Yes, we must remember that the Reformers were opposing the idolatry of Rome, because of the time in which they lived. If they saw the idolatry that calls itself worship in so-called evangelical churches today, they would condemn it. If we claim to be Protestants we should be reforming the church today of its idolatry, especially the rubish that occurs in some PCA churches.

Amazing Grace · #**165** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

What is you point, Robert? It should not matter if he has no RC family or friends, or a few, or a hundred.

Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.

Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery

There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.

Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a presby attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.

Where was I in error Stephen? Explain to me the history of where I veered off into some american revisionism? I meant no harm to Daniel, and since he did not reply, I thought I was spot on. Does Nova Scotia have a better rendering of Irelands history?

Perhpas Daniel, who lives there can give us the correct version..

NaphtaliPress · #**166** (**permalink**) 05-09-2008, 12:38 PM

This ends now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Stephen, my point is that if Daniel has not experienced the choice, then he cannot faithfully give a personal opinion. Yes he can parrot Knox and Calvin and any other polemical writer of that time, but until you are confronted with one whom you dearly love who is an rc, and are invited to such and such occasion, you cannot honestly feel the tension.

Daniel responded with :I apologise if I sound dogmatic in my opposition, but it is difficult for someone from an Ulster Evangelical background to grasp why some Christians do not see that going to a mass is wrong. This is because the main enemy we have been fighting is Popery

There is deep hatred in the blood of Daniel from centuries of conflict. A hatred that cannot be overlooked in a discussion as this. The protties in Ireland have been at war with everyone. The english, the irish catholics, and even irish protties of a different flavor. TO have a history of being picked on for centuries cannot be overcome easily. Its a perfect example of religious/denominational segregation which we do not experience in the USA. We have NEVER had religious wars as western europe has experienced. So when you are weaned on the bottle of blood, it defines your existence. You have lived in some sort of christian jihad. Where I have not. Its kinda like Judah vs the samaratins.

Also, I do not believe anyone who goes to a mass on this board is denying the disgusting practice of the sacrafice. Yet, I know for a fact, that 90% of teh catholics I know, some who are in my family, have no clue on what the church teaches. They have 100% faith by proxy. So for most rc's who invite a protty to a wedding or funeral mass, they have no intention of making that person choose to go or not. Let me also state that frequency definately plays a part in this. Noone here is espousing that we find a mass every week to attend becasue you know the people getting married. So there is no way that a handful of times to go is going to contaminate that person. We also have to remember the bible only speaks of 2 peoples. Believers or unbelievers. Not flavor of believers vs flavor of believers. Therefore we error when speaking of denomination vs denomination. I mean can I go to a wedding in an assembly of God building? Can a presby attend a funeral for a friend in a free will batpist/arminian to the core church? Can a padeo attend the baptism of a credo friend? I say yes to all of the above.

Robert, I was not going to comment but your ignorance of Irish history, would not let me remain silent. You cannot accuse another brother of hatred anymore than I could accuse you of discrimination against someone because of their nationality. You obviously do not know anything about Irish people or their history. I would urge you to stop listening to the American media and politicians, who have been supportive of Sein Fein. Read and study history before you make such statements, which are not based on fact.

Where was I in error Stephen? Explain to me the history of where I veered off into some american revisionism? I meant no harm to Daniel, and since he did not reply, I thought I was spot on. Does Nova Scotia have a better rendering of Irelands history?

Perhpas Daniel, who lives there can give us the correct version..