JW's believe ransom but not divinity of Christ

Javilo · #1 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 10:22 PM

So are they saved ? Since they are trusting in Christ's atonement it would
seem so. Although they believe that Christ lived as a sinless human being.
Does God take it further than that and ask a person about their theology
after death, "Is my Son Jesus Christ, God almighty?"
Or is the answer a mystery?

Grillsy · #2 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009, 10:28 PM

Since they believe in a false christ. I would say no.
It is also important to note that for the satisfaction to be made
we must have faith in the man-God Jesus Christ.
The two natures are important here. Especially when dealing with
active obedience, the atonement and other such issues.

In His Grip · #3 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 02:42 AM

The issue is that they do not rest in the atonement of Christ for their salvation. They teach that the ransom is simply a means to make salvation available to us, but ultimately they rest on their works for salvation. They see the atonement of Christ as insufficient to meet God's requirements, thus they need to be in "good standing" to earn their place in the Kingdom. It is simply another works-based religion, that diminishes the cost of the atonement of Christ!

A.J. · #4 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javilo

So are they saved ? Since they are trusting in Christ's atonement it would
seem so. Although they believe that Christ lived as a sinless human being.
Does God take it further than that and ask a person about their theology
after death, "Is my Son Jesus Christ, God almighty?"
Or is the answer a mystery?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in a false Christ. They can't be saved unless they trust in the Christ of the Bible for salvation. I believe that the Reformed Confessions are clear that a man must believe Christ for Who He really is before he can be saved. Notice the language of the Heidelberg Catechism.

Quote:

Lord’s Day 5

12. Since then, by the righteous judgment of God, we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favor?
God demands that His justice be satisfied,1 therefore we must make full satisfaction, either by ourselves or by another.2
1 Ex 20:5, 23:7; Rom 2:1-11; 2 Isa 53:11; Rom 8:3-4

13. Can we ourselves make this satisfaction?
By no means, on the contrary, we daily increase our guilt.1
1 Ps 130:3; Mt 6:12; Rom 2:4-5

14. Can any mere creature make satisfaction for us?
No. First, God will not punish another creature for the sin which man has committed;1 and further, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God’s eternal wrath against sin, and redeem others from it.2
1 Ezek 18:4, 20; Heb 2:14-18; 2 Ps 130:3; Nah 1:6

15. What kind of mediator and redeemer then must we seek?
One who is a true1 and sinless man,2 and yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is at the same time true God.3
1 1 Cor 15:21; Heb 2:17; 2 Isa 53:9; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 7:26; 3 Isa 7:14, 9:6; Jer 23:6; Jn 1:1; Rom 8:3-4

Lord’s Day 6

16. Why must He be a true and sinless man?
Because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should make satisfaction for sin;1 but no man, being himself a sinner, could satisfy for others.2
1 Rom 5:12, 15; 1 Cor 15:21; Heb 2:14-16; 2 Heb 7:26-27; 1 Pt 3:18

17. Why must He be at the same time true God?
That by the power of His divine nature1 He might bear in His human nature the burden of God’s wrath2 and so obtain for and restore to us righteousness and life.3
1 Isa 9:5; 2 Deut 4:24; Nah 1:6; Ps 130:3; 3 Isa 53:5, 11; Jn 3:16; 2 Cor 5:21

18. But who is that Mediator, who is at the same time true God and a true, sinless man?
Our Lord Jesus Christ,1 who is freely given unto us for complete redemption and righteousness.2
1 Mt 1:21-23; Lk 2:11; 1 Tim 2:5, 3:16; 2 1 Cor 1:30

19. From where do you know this?
From the Holy Gospel, which God Himself first revealed in Paradise;1 afterwards proclaimed by the holy Patriarchs2 and Prophets,3 and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the Law;4 and finally fulfilled by His well-beloved Son.5
1 Gen 3:15; 2 Gen 12:3, 22:18, 49:10; 3 Isa 53: Jer 23:5-6; Mic 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb 1:1; 4 Lev 1:7; Jn 5:46; Heb 10:1-10; 5 Rom 10:4; Gal 4:4-5; Col 2:17

Observe that the message of the gospel is inseparable from the satisfaction for sin obtained for believers by the the Lord Jesus Christ, and from the Biblical truth that He is both true God and true Man.

Reformed Thomist · #5 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 09:06 AM

If a member of the Watchtower cult happens to be saved (Christ happened to atone for his or her sin on the Cross two-thousand years ago), it is safe to assume that he or she will eventually leave this organization following regeneration.

A.J. · #6 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed Thomist

If a member of the Watchtower cult happens to be saved (Christ happened to atone for his or her sin on the Cross two-thousand years ago), it is safe to assume that he or she will eventually leave this organization following regeneration.

VilnaGaon · #7 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 09:45 AM

JWs are idolaters. They trust in a Christ fashioned after their perverted doctrines and mistranslated Scriptures. They like Mormons and Roman Catholics have made unto themselves another Jesus who ultimately cannot save. The only True Saviour is the Lord Jesus Christ presented in the Bible only.

***toddpedlar*** · #8 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javilo

So are they saved ? Since they are trusting in Christ's atonement it would
seem so. Although they believe that Christ lived as a sinless human being.
Does God take it further than that and ask a person about their theology
after death, "Is my Son Jesus Christ, God almighty?"
Or is the answer a mystery?

The horse is already dead, but let me add my voice. NO, they are not saved, if they believe what the Watchtower cult teaches. They do NOT believe in the Christ of Scripture, who is indeed God almighty and must be trusted in as such (nobody who believes Christ was merely human can be saved, period), nor do they believe in His atoning work on the Cross. Their Christ is a false construct - their only path to salvation is through their own works - hence they truly do not have peace. If you ever talk to the JW's and query them in depth on their own future, you'll very likely find this out. They cannot be sure of anything because they have no certain atonement, and no sure means of salvation. Theirs is a religion of bondage.

Grillsy · #9 (**permalink**) 07-06-2009, 12:56 PM

I am actually glad this subject came up in the forum
During my undergrad work I went around and around with
a professor of mine (Campbellite) who insisted that Mormon's
were saved because they believed in "Jesus" and are baptized. He did not
see that their perception of just who or what Jesus was has an effect on their faith and therefore their salvation.
I know this post is about JWs but the point I am trying to make
is relevant.
We tend to separate our theological views from our moral ones. As if the two things are mutually exclusive. Then what do we have? An epidemic of professing Christians who fail to see that espousing poor or heretical theology is sinful. This becomes even more difficult in dialog with the larger Cults because they use the same vocabulary as us only with a varied meaning.

Reformed Thomist · #10 (**permalink**) 07-07-2009, 09:33 PM

Just to add...

Questions like "Are [insert Christian or pseudo-Christian denomination here] saved?" sound weird to my ears. Hang around churches of the most orthodox, vibrant Christian denomination in the world and you will, consciously or unwittingly, come across lots of members who aren't saved. There are regenerate or soon-to-be regenerate believers currently in the RCC, JW cult, LDS, etc. (who will, we trust, eventually find their ways to proper churches), just as there are reprobates in good, conservative Presbyterian denoms and Baptist churches (who will probably eventually fall away, get booted, and/or join false churches). Which ecclesial body one does or does not patronize guarantees nothing. What guarantees everything is what Christ accomplished on the Cross before any of us were born.