I found this interesting. I've been researching a little more into Islam and started looking at statistics. This is not meant to be a dispensational moment where we look at the middle east and Islam and freak out. But it was interesting to just see the numbers. I have relatives in Europe, so I know that the population in Europe is going down, while the immigrant and Muslims population is really starting to sore.

With the statistics showing that the number of Christians is not decreasing or increasing, the number of Muslims is slowly starting to increase at a rate that it will soon surpass Christianity.


-----Added 7/10/2009 at 05:38:47 EST-----

Also, when I use Christianity I mean it in the sense that it is used in statistics where all denominations fall under. While there are many people that are considered "Christians" we know the number is a lot lower (the number of actual Christians). So Islam passed the number of actual believers a while ago.

My emphasis is just on the increase of Islam all over the world right now, not how we are going to become a "minority" in the religious aspect. I think true believers have been a minority compared to the people around us since Christ's time.

__________________
Claudiu
Reformed Baptist
attending Immanuel Baptist Church
Sacramento, CA

It's a shame that so many professing Christians seem to despise children/having children.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I could have told you that Islam would outgrow Christianity. My rapture chart predicted it.

(This gives me an idea. Someone needs to come up with a rapture smiley. He could fly upwards leaving his pants and shirt behind or his car unmanned.)

__________________
Steven J. Carr (Sven)
http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com/
Eagan, MN
PCA
"Weak is the effort of my heart / And cold my warmest thought / But when I see thee as thou art / I'll praise thee as I ought."--John Newton
Trophy Wife/Arm Candy: Crystal Ann Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace

It seems like this problem is not only happening in the West, but in the East as well. I think it was China or Japan that is having similar problems as Europe. Not Sure.

But most people claim that the present day conditions, such as the cost of living, is why people are not having children (as it is more expensive to have children).

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 05:50:26 EST-----

You aren't too far from Dearborn, MI.
How is the Muslim population where you are?

I heard there are many efforts in evangelizing to the Muslims in Dearborn.

How about this:





Practicing for the secret rapture:

__________________
We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

Good ones, but they don't leave pants and shirts behind.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 06:37:09 EST-----

Michigan holds the largest Arab population in America. Dearborn is the tenth largest Arab community in Michigan. There are all kinds of crazy Sha'riah law type stuff going on over there that nobody ever seems to deem newsworthy. I met a woman from one Arab community in MI that is hiding from her father because she became a Christian and if he ever finds her, he will kill her. No, the authorities are not doing anything about it. There are many Chaldeans in that area, however, that are Christians who fled from their countries to escape persecution. Most of them are Reformed Baptist. There are many who are trying to evangelize Muslims. There is a great missionary opportunity right here in Michigan. This site is a good place to go to keep up with Muslim news worldwide: Jihad Watch

Wow! Thanks for sharing.
I heard similar insight on the situation there. It's unbelievable.
A friend of mine who visited an evangelism effort taking place there. He shared with me their frustrations to the fact that there are Muslims who convert, yet because they fear of being found out they still do all the Muslim prayers and whatnot. If one converts they are deemed as an infidel, and worthy of death. The only way to live without fear of death is to escape the community, which has a big stronghold on religious politics.

I think what we're seeing in Europe is that atheism, agnosticism, wishy-washy liberal spirituality, and what have you, is no match for religion. They don't fill voids. Islam has begun to fill the void left by the widespread rejection of Christianity.

__________________
Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

I am more optimistic.

Philip Jenkins is also:

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Thanks for the recommendation.
Have you read the book?

Yes, I highly recommend it.

I don't doubt the overall trend in Europe (I am living several hundred yards from a very Muslim area in London) but this video is full of factual and statistical errors. I started checking some of the "facts" and found many of them to completely wrong (eg, the claim that 25% of Belgium is Muslim - the highest reliable recent number I can find is 6%; the Muslim birth rate figures for the Netherlands, France are completely exaggerated; the quote from the German Federal Statistics Office is not actually from that source, etc).

It's late at night here so I've stopped Googling the real statistics but I've just found links to several websites that were coming up with similar statistics to mine. Sadly, they were then able to use the more accurate numbers to rip apart this specific video.

That's a shame because the growth of Islam in Europe is a concern but using inaccurate and scare-mongering figures in videos doesn't help.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 07:12:30 EST-----

What do you base that on? I have not experienced that to any discernible degree. Do you mean many Christians don't want to have large numbers of children (say, 4 or 5) or simply don't want to have them at all?

__________________
Jon
London, UK
Ex-Redeemer PCA, Manhattan
(Now All Souls' Langham Place, London)

I do not know if I would count "4 or 5" as "large"...

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

It's on my "to read" list

4 or 5 is just getting stated.

I wasn't able to check if the statistics were accurate or not. But thanks for the insight.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 07:19:32 EST-----

Most people I've talked to already consider 3 children as a "large family"

That's because you're from California.

Haha, and I'm only in the suburban area of Sac (which doesn't have that many liberals- althgouh there are plenty already) and I hear that...but San Fran on the other hand is the liberals headquarters. Imagine what one would hear from them. Actually, I did. They don't really believe in the family concept. But then again the libs there are fighting for something they call a "family"....gay marriage (which is really an oxymoron).

I agree with jonmo.

The expansion of Muslims is a problem. However, scaring people into having kids is not the answer, nor is adding to God's word some command that every married couple who can have children must have children. Such I ideas reduce who has God's truth down to who can have the most children.

I would say that every covenant community must have people who are about the task of having and raising covenant children, just as every covenant community must have elders and deacons. That has, no doubt, got to be a concern.

However, we also need to realize that Islam is an entirely anachronistic religion. The way it does its study is to read back into the New Testament period ideas that came from a man 600 years later who had never read the Hebrew Bible or the Greek New Testament. James White has done good work in pointing much of this out.

In other words, Islam is very vulnerable in the intellectual realm. What good is it to have all of those children, if you are only going to teach them something that is going to simply be refuted by Christian scholarship anyway?

God Bless,
Adam

__________________
Adam
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Deerfield, Illinois
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School Student

I don't know if your response was directed at anyone here on PB...

"scaring people into having kids is not the answer"...I agree. But, I don't think anyone here was arguing for having more children to solve the problem. The video does not make that suggestion either. The video only shows the expansion of Islam in our times. At the end it does not scare people into having more kids, but rather, making a call to action: evangelism.

"nor is adding to God's word some command that every married couple who can have children must have children"

I don't think anyone was arguing this point either...did someone here add to God's word some command that every married couple who can have children must have children

"Such I ideas reduce who has God's truth down to who can have the most children."

Again I don't really think anyone was arguing for having more children.

IMO evangelism seems like a better response to the growing number of non-Believers in the world...as opposed to breeding them out.

Claudiu, the important thing is that someone took the time to look at the video (I didn't since those types of videos are almost always done by liars or dumb people) and pointed out that the video was peddling false information.

We've enough to worry about without making things up, brother.

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Point taken

Scaring people into having children???? God's own Word says very plainly that they are a blessing. You don't scare people into it, God blesses these families as He will. He open and closes the womb, we're not vermin that breed without thought or purpose.

That being said, telling God that He may call it a blessing, but you've got a 'better' idea seems to me just a tad unbiblical.

Islam will help separate the sheep from the goats. I love Pergy's take on the immigration/breeding (from an earlier thread): the fields are now white with harvest here, we need not go half way around the world to take the Word to the Muslims.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

cecat90,

No, my point was to take several solutions the Christian church is pedaling to this issue, and point out that we are thinking about this problem all wrong, because our solutions are all wrong.

While people on this thread may not have argued this, there are many people who argue that deliberate childlessness is a sin. I am just pointing out that the church is doing everything it can to avoid solving the population problem Biblically. I have found that there are wonderful solutions to this problem in scripture, but we seem to be a culture of reaction rather than calm and careful reasoning. I fear that, because of that, these social problems will remain.

God Bless,
Adam

It is.

kvanlaan,

Children being a blessing is totally irrelevant to the subject. The only way it would be relevant is if you are trying to argue that, if something is a blessing, you must pursue it. However, that is logically problematic. For example, it is a blessing to have a Phd in Hebrew Bible. However, are you currently pursuing a Phd in Hebrew Bible?

Also, you say God opens and closes the womb. As Calvinists, we believe God causes all things. In fact, the Bible says that God raises up nations. Now, don't you agree that it would be rather silly for Egyptians to have avoided battling the Hittites because the Hittites were an up and coming power, and it is God who raises up nations?

Again, as is always the case in this discussion, I see no exegesis from people who argue this way.

God Bless,
Adam

Excellent observation.

Might I add that whether or not the statistics are accurate, if the world is at some point enveloped by the dark curtain of Islam, that will make the subsequent triumph of the Gospel that much more glorious.

__________________
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

Ok, I see what you mean. I understand where you are coming from with that. For example, I know many eastern Europeans who tend to have large families and look down upon couples that don't have kids. Some even argue "that deliberate childlessness is a sin."

False.

When we as married couples decide to take measures to halt conception, that is taking measures to take God's sovereignty into our hands (and by our actions saying that we do not want His blessings - thus 'we have a better idea'). It is not logically problematic, but it is biblical.

Man and wife are to freely consummate their relationship. We may not deprive each other, save by mutual consent, so that we may devote our time to prayer. What is the product of that consummation? Children.

Please, exegete away.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 10:16:34 EST-----

This act of looking down on others is a sin. But it is completely divorced from the issue at hand.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 10:18:08 EST-----

I'm not a big fan of fish. Please take the red herrings off the menu.

We really don't know what God's will is in this matter. Maybe God wants to use Islam to whittle us down until we are just a small, embattled group of Christians believing something that is totally ridiculous to the world and living like loons(loving loons, but loons) in the eyes of most people. It would be rough if that happened, but I could see us regaining a vital Christian witness that I think has been lost when Christianity stopped being a separatist movement.

I'm also skeptical of Philip Jenkins and his optimism. He argues in God's Continent that we shouldn't be alarmed about the rise of Islam in Europe, because it's a secular, pluralistic environment, and other fundamentalist religions(Christianity) have not been able to thrive there. But the Christianity of most people is not nearly as life-encompassing or community oriented as Islam is. What do most Christians do? Well, according statistics I've heard, most Christians don't even go to church. They aren't even part of a community. And from my experience, those who do go to church can't be said to have a radically Christian way of viewing the world. I don't see how that classifies as a fundamentalist religion, except for maybe the emphasis on the exclusivity of Christ.


Also Muslims are separatists, in most cases. They speak their own language, they go to their own schools, their main associations are with other people of the same faith; they have a degree of separatism that Christianity has not had in a long time. With that distance from Western culture which so many of them have, even when living in Western Culture, how do we know that they will suffer the same attrition as Christians have suffered? I feel that Philip Jenkins didn't focus enough on that difference, that Islam is a separatist movement and is therefore not as susceptible to be contaminated by the culture as other religions.

Hey I'm not too qualified, these are just my thoughts. Jenkins could be right and Islam could become secularized, but the impression I get from all of my media intake is that it's not happening. If he's expressing false optimism on the issue of Islam in Europe, I just wouldn't be too surprised if he is expressing false optimism over the rise of Christianity. Again, from my reading on the subject, with Mark Noll saying that the type of Christianity spreading all over is Charismatic in nature, and then with Joel Osteen coming on my TV every Sunday at 8, it's hard for me to believe that Christianity is spreading.

BUT, I haven't read the book. I will put it on the list.

__________________
Andrew C.
IFB
LBCF 1689

"This act of looking down on others is a sin. But it is completely divorced from the issue at hand." .....ok?

Tim, do you mean it's a sin for someone to choose a life of celibate, singleness?

I doubt you would mean that, I just want to be sure. You never know what you'll hear over the Internet.

That is, it has nothing to do with procreating in our union as man and wife. It is a sin, yes, to behave this way. But it neither advances nor defends either side of the argument, as it is not related to whether or not it is a sin to purposefully remain childless.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 10:30:58 EST-----

Sorry, don't mean to speak for Tim, but I would say that in regards to a married couple, yes, it is.

There is no possible way for you to have interpreted what I said to have meant that, given the context. Please go back and read the whole thread.

No really, I have actually heard it argued that celibacy was a sin, because when God created man he gave the command to be fruitful and multiply. I read the whole thread, and I really wasn't sure if you were saying that(not nitpicking).

Scripture is clear, that celibacy is good for those to whom that gift has been given. And Scripture is clear that celibacy is bad for those to whom that particular gift has not been given.

Ah, amen. Thanks for clearing it up.

*continue with the very interesting thread*

Thats an interesting way of looking at.

kvanlann,

Actually, you are the one stating that this is wrong, so, it is incumbent upon you to show that there is something in the Hebrew term berakah that has anything to do with saying someone who doesn't pursue it doesn't want God's blessings, or that they are trying to control God's sovereignty. Note the actual way in which this term is used in scripture, and see if it fits your logic:

In Leviticus 25:21, crops are called a blessing. Does that mean that anyone who does not plant seeds is somehow saying that they are "taking God's sovereignty into their own hands" [remember too that the Torah also speaks of God as the one who gives Israel crops] and saying that they do not want God's blessings? In fact, apparently, an increase in crops is considered a blessing [Deuteronomy 28:2, 4]. Apparently, we are also trying to control God's sovereignty when we are not farmers. We are also trying to control God's sovereignty if we are farmers, and we plant an amount of seed that would, at max, yield the same produce as the year before. Apparently, if we don't want his blessing of crops, we have a better idea.

Again, there are many examples of this term in the Hebrew Bible. There is nothing in the context of this word to say that it is violating God's sovereignty and saying we don't want his blessings, and there is nothing in the word itself that says that we are violating God's sovereignty and don't want his blessings. If there is nothing in the word, and nothing in the context, what should that tell you? It should tell you that it is total eisegesis to read the text in this fashion.

You also never addressed my arguments. Were the Egyptians trying to violate God's sovereignty by fighting the up and coming Hittites since it is God who raises nations up? By you not pursuing a Phd in Hebrew Bible [given that, after all, the Bible does say that "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17)] are you somehow saying that you do not want God's blessing?

Again, the problem is that God has given humankind so many blessings that to pursue them all is impossible from a human perspective. Every good thing comes down to us as God's blessing, as James 1:17 says. Hence, to pursue every single blessing of God is logically impossible.

Again, I see no exegesis from your side of this discussion.

God Bless,
Adam

Well, The Christian witness of the church is compromised when we create an environment where false converts thrive. Paul is so concerned with maintaining a pure community, that he argues for either barring church membership or for just general avoidance of believers who live inconsistent with the truth they profess, depending upon how you interpret the last verses in 1 Cor. 5, and in Ephesians says that sinful practices should not even be mentioned among believers.

What would be a faster way to get a pure assembly than to live under the dominion of a blood thirsty Caliphate?