If an ordained minister says abortion is "a blessing..."

wturri78 · #1 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 02:29 PM

Will she:

a) Be removed immediately from office,
b) Be rebuked publicly for advocating a position that flies in the face of Scripture and 2,000 years of Christian teaching,
c) Be promoted to the presidency of a seminary

According to the following online article from World Magazine by Marvin Olasky, faithful Episcopal believers have even more reason to leave their "church" in droves:

----------------------

Quote:

"Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done."

That was the Rev. Katherine Hancock Ragsdale in 2007, repetitiously inciting her disciples to be not just pro-choice but fanatically pro-abortion. This is significant because, according to standard journalistic stylebooks, Ragsdale does not exist. We're told that pro-choice folks don't like abortion; they're just trying to help a woman facing tragedy.

Ragsdale, though, says abortion is a "blessing," and not only in harsh situations but good ones: "When a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion—there is not a tragedy in sight—only blessing. The ability to enjoy God's good gift of sexuality without compromising one's education, life's work, or ability to put to use God's gifts and call is simply blessing."

Ragsdale is in the news because of a plum appointment: On July 1 she is scheduled to become president of Episcopal Divinity School, a major seminary near Harvard that was founded in 1974 when two venerable divinity schools (founded in 1858 and 1867) merged.

Hear some more of Ragsdale's statement to her troops: "I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing—who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes—in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You're engaged in holy work."

Ragsdale is a member of the board of NARAL Pro-Choice America and for eight years chaired the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights. Nevertheless, calling abortion "holy work" seemed so over-the-top that WORLD called Ragsdale to ask whether a fanatic had taken her name in a variant of identity theft. Ragsdale acknowledged that the words were hers and that she still identified abortion with "blessing." She said, though, that she had pulled that speech off her website because it was "creating an occasion for sin" as readers posted critical comments. She also said she's "really busy and can't keep up with the comments coming in."

How has Ragsdale developed her position? I looked on her website at sermons that remain. In 2005 she asked rhetorically why pro-lifers did not look at pro-aborts "with tolerance and respect." She then said, "The answer to that question is that in this arena it is women who must make the final decision and that you do not respect the moral agency (or full personhood) of women simply because we are women." Convenient: It's not about life; it's about sexism.

But go back further, to an Easter sermon in 2003 when she said that the Resurrection may never have happened. (Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "If Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile . . . we are of all people most to be pitied.") And go back further to Easter 2002: "The suffering and death of Jesus, according to the theory of the Atonement, pays for our sins and buys our salvation. It's an interesting theory, but not one that I find compelling."

Some denominations have cracked open on issues of homosexual ordination, but the fissure began long before, when clerics put God on trial and chose which doctrines they found compelling. In 2003, proclaiming her lesbianism, Ragsdale took aim at those who say that "we can't help being gay—the old take pity, have mercy, argument. You know, the one that concludes with a plaintive—who would choose this? Let me answer that with three words: Me! Me! Me!"

The tragedy of abortion is bad enough, but the origin of the tragedy, and so many others of our time, emerges from worship not of Christ but of "me, me, me." Katherine Ragsdale may show this tendency in a heightened form, but all of us display it to some degree. May God have mercy on her, on her students, and on all of us.

Re4mdant · #2 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 02:31 PM

AndyS · #3 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wturri78

Will she:

a) Be removed immediately from office,
b) Be rebuked publicly for advocating a position that flies in the face of Scripture and 2,000 years of Christian teaching,
c) Be promoted to the presidency of a seminary

According to the following online article from World Magazine by Marvin Olasky, faithful Episcopal believers have even more reason to leave their "church" in droves:

----------------------

Quote:

"Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done."

That was the Rev. Katherine Hancock Ragsdale in 2007, repetitiously inciting her disciples to be not just pro-choice but fanatically pro-abortion. This is significant because, according to standard journalistic stylebooks, Ragsdale does not exist. We're told that pro-choice folks don't like abortion; they're just trying to help a woman facing tragedy.

Ragsdale, though, says abortion is a "blessing," and not only in harsh situations but good ones: "When a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion—there is not a tragedy in sight—only blessing. The ability to enjoy God's good gift of sexuality without compromising one's education, life's work, or ability to put to use God's gifts and call is simply blessing."

Ragsdale is in the news because of a plum appointment: On July 1 she is scheduled to become president of Episcopal Divinity School, a major seminary near Harvard that was founded in 1974 when two venerable divinity schools (founded in 1858 and 1867) merged.

Hear some more of Ragsdale's statement to her troops: "I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing—who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes—in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You're engaged in holy work."

Ragsdale is a member of the board of NARAL Pro-Choice America and for eight years chaired the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights. Nevertheless, calling abortion "holy work" seemed so over-the-top that WORLD called Ragsdale to ask whether a fanatic had taken her name in a variant of identity theft. Ragsdale acknowledged that the words were hers and that she still identified abortion with "blessing." She said, though, that she had pulled that speech off her website because it was "creating an occasion for sin" as readers posted critical comments. She also said she's "really busy and can't keep up with the comments coming in."

How has Ragsdale developed her position? I looked on her website at sermons that remain. In 2005 she asked rhetorically why pro-lifers did not look at pro-aborts "with tolerance and respect." She then said, "The answer to that question is that in this arena it is women who must make the final decision and that you do not respect the moral agency (or full personhood) of women simply because we are women." Convenient: It's not about life; it's about sexism.

But go back further, to an Easter sermon in 2003 when she said that the Resurrection may never have happened. (Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "If Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile . . . we are of all people most to be pitied.") And go back further to Easter 2002: "The suffering and death of Jesus, according to the theory of the Atonement, pays for our sins and buys our salvation. It's an interesting theory, but not one that I find compelling."

Some denominations have cracked open on issues of homosexual ordination, but the fissure began long before, when clerics put God on trial and chose which doctrines they found compelling. In 2003, proclaiming her lesbianism, Ragsdale took aim at those who say that "we can't help being gay—the old take pity, have mercy, argument. You know, the one that concludes with a plaintive—who would choose this? Let me answer that with three words: Me! Me! Me!"

The tragedy of abortion is bad enough, but the origin of the tragedy, and so many others of our time, emerges from worship not of Christ but of "me, me, me." Katherine Ragsdale may show this tendency in a heightened form, but all of us display it to some degree. May God have mercy on her, on her students, and on all of us.

Truly makes me ill.

I have a 9-month-old son. I can't even read a description of abortion without getting upset. How anyone can knowingly approve of that just baffles & sickens me.

Whitefield · #4 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 02:44 PM

Discretion prevents from using this emoticon -

wturri78 · #5 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyS

Truly makes me ill.

I have a 9-month-old son. I can't even read a description of abortion without getting upset. How anyone can knowingly approve of that just baffles & sickens me.

Agreed. I have a nearly 15-month old son who spends most of his time being pulled down off the window sills and cabinet handles. Before his birth I was pro-life in a mainly academic, detached sort of way. I can't look at the issue the same way any more. Hearing stories of abortion and seeing people stand on their "rights" doesn't just annoy me anymore--it actually hurts.

And to see somebody claim, in the name and authority of God, that this is a blessing, and be promoted to the highest levels within a denomination!?!?

he beholds · #6 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 03:31 PM

Sorry. I actually have hatred for people like that and I think imprecatory Psalms are appropriate. Am I way off????

MrMerlin777 · #7 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 03:34 PM

This is old news. TEC has been bordering on / apostate for years.

Virtue Online has posted several "blurbs" on this very subject.

I'd post the links but at this time I've been searching the site and can't seem to find the articles I'm searching for. Dave Virtue's site is here though.

VirtueOnline - The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

Berean · #8 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

faithful Episcopal believers

Who have been in a coma for years?

Knoxienne · #9 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by he beholds

Sorry. I actually have hatred for people like that and I think imprecatory Psalms are appropriate. Am I way off????

No, you're not.

MrMerlin777 · #10 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 05:56 PM

VirtueOnline - News - Exclusives - Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes Worst of Church

Here's the article from Virtue Online.

gene_mingo · #11 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 06:07 PM

Lord come quickly.

OPC'n · #12 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 06:36 PM

Hmmmm....wonder what this woman would think if her mother wished she had had an abortion?

MrMerlin777 · #13 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Hmmmm....wonder what this woman would think if her mother wished she had had an abortion?

I wonder too, and it seems we're not the only ones. One of the responses on the site I posted to the article says this, "Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes... Ever notice how all those who favor abortion have already been born? If Ragsdale's mother had aborted her, would that have been a blessing? DPK"

21st Century Calvinist · #14 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 06:56 PM

I have never ever heard your average pro choice person call abortion a blessing or to suggest that it is something to be welcomed. The pro choice folks usually present it as a necessary evil. Now the "church" says you can be blessed by having an abortion.
This spits in the face of God who is the giver of life and it mocks the pain, guilt and heartache of every woman who regrets aborting her child.
This is the extreme of what happens when you open your pulpits to unbelievers.

Hawaiian Puritan · #15 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 07:41 PM

The worship of Moloch is alive and well.

**Marrow Man** · #16 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 08:29 PM

You can't really make matters worse (a homosexual "minister" ordained by John Shelby Spong who hates the gospel and advocates the murder of the unborn by calling it a "blessing" is about as bad as it gets), but check out her C.V. We have the president of a seminary associated with Harvard University, and her terminal degree is a D.Min. I'm not knocking the D.Min. (demon?) degree, but since when does that qualify you to be head of a seminary? And check out her publications while you're at it...

Sorry, but this maneuver smacks of being political, pure and simple. She didn't the position because she was the most qualified.

Rich Koster · #17 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 08:35 PM

If an ordained minister says abortion is "a blessing..."
Will she:

a) Be removed immediately from office,
b) Be rebuked publicly for advocating a position that flies in the face of Scripture and 2,000 years of Christian teaching,
c) Be promoted to the presidency of a seminary

I say d) accept and affirm

Just another symptom of liberalism growing into apostasy.

MrMerlin777 · #18 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

You can't really make matters worse (a homosexual "minister" ordained by John Shelby Spong who hates the gospel and advocates the murder of the unborn by calling it a "blessing" is about as bad as it gets), but check out her C.V. We have the president of a seminary associated with Harvard University, and her terminal degree is a D.Min. I'm not knocking the D.Min. (demon?) degree, but since when does that qualify you to be head of a seminary? And check out her publications while you're at it...

Sorry, but this maneuver smacks of being political, pure and simple. She didn't the position because she was the most qualified.

I agree, certainly a political move. Just like the other moves TEC has pulled. (The election of Archbishop Jefferts Schori, The cannonization of Robinson a unrepentant sodomite, the ordination of Women, the list goes on and on)

**DMcFadden** · #19 (**permalink**) 05-05-2009, 10:06 PM

According to the book list, EDS requires Bart Ehrman's book for NT Intro too!

Quote:

The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings

And, if you take the Christology class, you read . . .

Quote:

Making a Way Out of No Way: A Womanist Theology (Innovations: African American Religious Thought) (Innovations: African American Religious Thought)

Christ & Empire: From Paul to Postcolonial Times (Facets)

Cross Examinations: Readings on the Meaning of the Cross Today

Thinking of Christ: Proclamation, Explanation, Meaning

And if you dabble in Spirituality and Healing, you get to read . . .

Quote:

Shambhala Guide to Traditional Chinese Medicine

Dancing After the Whirlwind: Feminist Reflections on Sex, Denial, and Spiritual Healing

Peace Is Every Step: The Path of Mindfulness in Everyday Life

If you check out what "People at EDS are reading" you will see that they list Dan Brown's DaVinci Code and Angels and Demons, Karen King's varied ruminations on gnosticism, and Karen Armstrong's thirteen books.

Of their core competencies in theological eduction and pastoral preparation they name "Anglican, Global, and Ecumenical Studies," "Congregational Studies," and

Quote:

Feminist Liberation Theologies (FLT) furnishes students with critical tools to examine and confront interlocking forms of oppression, such as sexism, racism, classism, and heterosexism, in today's world. FLT begins its theological endeavors with the experiences of marginalized peoples and their struggles for liberation, especially women and their communities. In every aspect of the students' educational and ministerial formation, FLT invites them to reflect theologically on these struggles, analyze the systemic and cultural sources of conflict that give rise to them, and create new opportunities for social transformation and change. FLT integrates rigorous academic work, praxis, thoughtful reflection, and collaboration between students and faculty to provide students with the leadership necessary to pursue their work in today's society and church.

It sounds to me as if EDS, which brags about being a short 8 blocks from Harvard Yard, has gotten the President that they were looking for and deserve. It also looks as if Westminster, GPTS, PRTS, etc. will not be too worried about losing prospective students to the Cambridge (MA) "competition."

**DMcFadden** · #20 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

You can't really make matters worse (a homosexual "minister" ordained by John Shelby Spong who hates the gospel and advocates the murder of the unborn by calling it a "blessing" is about as bad as it gets), but check out her C.V. We have the president of a seminary associated with Harvard University, and her terminal degree is a D.Min. I'm not knocking the D.Min. (demon?) degree, but since when does that qualify you to be head of a seminary? And check out her publications while you're at it...

Sorry, but this maneuver smacks of being political, pure and simple. She didn't the position because she was the most qualified.

Tim, In Reformed circles you are too accustomed to pastors with PhD degrees! Some colleges and seminaries are looking more for a fund raiser than an academic. Plus, women can still get a pass in liberal seminary circles with only a D.Min. My former denomination had a woman with a D.Min. move from a long time faculty post at Fuller to become president at one of their colleges near Philadelphia. And, she was a Presbyterian (PCUSA) in an ABC school!

Besides, in the more liberal mainline circles, the percentage of female seminary students often greatly outweighs the numbers of men. A liberal, pro-abortion, feminist, lesbian ordained by Bishop Spong would fit in just PERFECTLY in that environment.

**DMcFadden** · #21 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21st Century Calvinist

I have never ever heard your average pro choice person call abortion a blessing or to suggest that it is something to be welcomed. The pro choice folks usually present it as a necessary evil. Now the "church" says you can be blessed by having an abortion.
This spits in the face of God who is the giver of life and it mocks the pain, guilt and heartache of every woman who regrets aborting her child.
This is the extreme of what happens when you open your pulpits to unbelievers.

That is what makes it such a great example. How often do we get a "progressive" to be soooooo candid about his or her views? I guess when you take gay + pro abortion + theologically liberal + feminist = unashamed candor.

he beholds · #22 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 08:55 AM

*sigh*

wturri78 · #23 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 10:25 AM

"Dancing After the Whirlwind: Feminist Reflections on Sex, Denial, and Spiritual Healing"

How can I not read this stuff now that I know it exists!? Who needs Bible studies?

AndyS · #24 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wturri78

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyS

Truly makes me ill.

I have a 9-month-old son. I can't even read a description of abortion without getting upset. How anyone can knowingly approve of that just baffles & sickens me.

Agreed. I have a nearly 15-month old son who spends most of his time being pulled down off the window sills and cabinet handles. Before his birth I was pro-life in a mainly academic, detached sort of way. I can't look at the issue the same way any more. Hearing stories of abortion and seeing people stand on their "rights" doesn't just annoy me anymore--it actually hurts.

And to see somebody claim, in the name and authority of God, that this is a blessing, and be promoted to the highest levels within a denomination!?!?

Not to be insensitive, but it is my understanding that it is not permitted to show video of actual abortions taking place. I find it hard to believe that very many people could/would continue supporting the practice if it were allowed to be shown. (Not that I could bear to see it.)

Kind of reminds me of the terrorists beheading civilian captives & broadcasting it on Al-Jazeera, while no networks over here showed it & people kept wanting to ignore it & call Islam a religion of peace, etc. (Sorry if anyone finds that a bad analogy.)

ExGentibus · #25 (**permalink**) 05-06-2009, 01:26 PM

Horrible, truly horrible. This one gets easily the first place on my top-five list of liberal atrocities. (No. 2 is an important politician stating that "family planning" is essential to economic recovery).

What would

say?

kvanlaan · #26 (**permalink**) 05-10-2009, 12:41 PM

There must be an extra-crispy corner of hell for people like this. If I study for the 'ministry', put on a collar, and supposedly raise the banner of Christ, proclaiming to be a teacher thereof, and I do all these things knowingly but remain a pagan, then, wow.

Praise God for His sovereignty and that the coming battle is already won.

Matthias · #27 (**permalink**) 05-10-2009, 03:57 PM

The fact that this woman claims to be a minister of God, shows that she is in rebellion to Gods word.

**DMcFadden** · #28 (**permalink**) 05-10-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias

The fact that this woman claims to be a minister of God, shows that she is in rebellion to Gods word.

National Congregations Study - Wave 2 - 2006-2007
http://www.soc.duke.edu/natcong/exploretables2_07.html - you can do your own crosstabulations on a variety of variables.

Quote:

The 2006-07 National Congregations Study is a major survey of a nationally representative sample of 1506 congregations from all over the United States. It documents the work, programs, activities, and changes of America's religious congregations. Researchers gathered this information by interviewing one knowledgeable leader from each congregation included in the study either by phone or face-to-face.

"Female Head/senior clergy"
Baptist = .2%
Methodist = 12.2%
Lutheran = 14.7%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 11.2%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 17.1%
Episcopal = 11.3%

Women permitted to "preach at main worship service"
Baptist = 41%
Methodist = 98.7%
Lutheran = 57%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 85%
Pentecostal 88.5%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 95.2%

"Openly gay/lesbian couple in a committed relationship" allowed in "leadership" (presumably lay leadership???)
Baptist = 6.4%
Methodist = 37%
Lutheran = 41.9%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 39.3%
Pentecostal = .4%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 54.2%
Episcopal = 82%

Leadership allowed includes "Someone who supports a women's right to choose"
Baptist = 30.6%
Methodist = 79.1%
Lutheran = 65.6%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 79.2%
Pentecostal = 16.4%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 94.8%
Episcopal = 95.4%

Rich Koster · #29 (**permalink**) 05-10-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias

The fact that this woman claims to be a minister of God, shows that she is in rebellion to Gods word.

National Congregations Study - Wave 2 - 2006-2007
National Congregations Study - you can do your own crosstabulations on a variety of variables.

Quote:

The 2006-07 National Congregations Study is a major survey of a nationally representative sample of 1506 congregations from all over the United States. It documents the work, programs, activities, and changes of America's religious congregations. Researchers gathered this information by interviewing one knowledgeable leader from each congregation included in the study either by phone or face-to-face.

"Female Head/senior clergy"
Baptist = .2%
Methodist = 12.2%
Lutheran = 14.7%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 11.2%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 17.1%
Episcopal = 11.3%

Women permitted to "preach at main worship service"
Baptist = 41%
Methodist = 98.7%
Lutheran = 57%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 85%
Pentecostal 88.5%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 95.2%

"Openly gay/lesbian couple in a committed relationship" allowed in "leadership" (presumably lay leadership???)
Baptist = 6.4%
Methodist = 37%
Lutheran = 41.9%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 39.3%
Pentecostal = .4%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 54.2%
Episcopal = 82%

Leadership allowed includes "Someone who supports a women's right to choose"
Baptist = 30.6%
Methodist = 79.1%
Lutheran = 65.6%
Presbyterian/Reformed = 79.2%
Pentecostal = 16.4%
Other moderate or liberal Protestants = 94.8%
Episcopal = 95.4%

Two comments:
1) I don't trust surveys to be accurate.
2) Sad. (Even with a 20% error tolerance)