» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 94 | | 31 members and 63 guests | | Abd_Yesua_alMasih, Anton Bruckner, blhowes, BobVigneault, BuddyOfDavidClarkson, ColdSilverMoon, CovenantalBaptist, danmpem, Ex Nihilo, Glenn Ferrell, Grace Alone, greenbaggins, Grymir, jawyman, jaybird0827, JM, KMK, mossy, Nebrexan, Puritan Sailor, refbaptdude, Reformingstudent, rjlynam, rmdmphilosopher, TimV, westminken, wmc1982 | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM. | |  | | 
12-10-2007, 09:25 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 797
Thanks: 255
Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts
| | | Woman as Primary Bread Winner? I've been wondering, is it okay for a woman to be the primary income earner of a marriage? I know the ideal situation is that wives be homemakers, but women are also to be helpers. I think the idea of helper can extend to income earning, especially if the husband's income earning power is not enough to support the family. However, at what point is a wife's duty as helper turn into dominating her husband? Or is it even a matter of domination in this realm?
__________________ Nikki Edmond
New Beginnings Believers Bible Fellowship (Family's Church), Non-Denom
Los Angeles, CA www.haveatulip.com - Chat Room for Reformed Believers Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. | 
12-10-2007, 09:43 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texarkana (Border of Texas and Arkansas)
Posts: 14,792
Thanks: 1,263
Thanked 1,419 Times in 749 Posts
| | Woman was created to be a helpmeet. All examples in Scripture point to the Husband being the provide, worker, etc. outside the home. In Proverbs 31 we do see a Lady who works per se, but it is for the advancement of her family, and her work is directly tied to the home. She's not working for another man, nor under anyone else's headship.
It is interesting what Paul says in 1 Timothy 5: Quote: |
3 Honor widows who are truly widows. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. 5 She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, 6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. 7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, 10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. 11 But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry 12 and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. 13 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. 14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
| We may deduce several things:
1. Widows are to be taken care of by their children, first, then the church (this doesn't mean mooching, but legitimate care, etc.). This would imply that it's not for the woman to be out in the world career-minded, etc. Remember, God directed his words toward Adam when he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." His rebuke toward Eve was not about work but about childbearing (I'm glad I'm a man)
2. Verse 8, is directed toward a man, not a woman.
3. Look at what the younger women should be doing, according to the Holy Spirit via Paul's pen: "marry, bear children, manage their households" and taking care of widow relatives.
So, I would say one of the most Biblical purposes in a wife is to be a helpmeet in serving her husband's and children's needs, in the context of the home, which may include some working outside the home (in a literal sense, like the Prov. 31 Lady), but never at the cost of the home. In other words, not a career, not working under men who're not her husband, etc. And not permanently. Now lest I be misunderstood, there is hardly a more noble calling than being a wife, mother, and helpmeet. I've never known a Biblical wife or mom who is overpaid, but many who are underpaid.  | | The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to joshua For This Useful Post: | | 
12-10-2007, 10:05 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Riva, MD
Posts: 443
Thanks: 183
Thanked 183 Times in 80 Posts
| | | Nikki, good question.
The Scriptural ideal is just as brother Josh has said so well. That said, there are times when the ideal isn't possible. We have two families in our congregation in which the wife is the bread winner.
In the first family, the husband is unable to do much because of a nearly fatal motorcycle accident three or four years ago. He broke a number of bones in his body including his hips. He continues to be on meds that prevent him from getting work... He's blessed to be alive. He hopes the situation will one day change, but for now, it is what it is; his wife works as a teacher.
In the second family, the husband has terrible eye problems (due to a genetic disease) and has been unable to get work, though he has tried and is willing to work. To top it off, they have three children, two of which are severely handicapped (also due to family genetics). Thanfully, he is well enough to be a homemaker while his wife also works as a teacher.
Now, in the example you've provided, I would suggest that the family first figure out what their true cost of living really is. Perhaps they need to consider lowering their standard of living... Otherwise, it may simply be another situation, like the ones I've mentioned, that's less than ideal. Perhaps they should consider having the wife work for a time while the husband works on sharpening a skillset to get a job that can provide for the family. We ought always to be working toward the ideal insofar as it's in our power to do so...
Just my opinion.
In His bountiful grace, | | The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Bygracealone For This Useful Post: | Anton Bruckner (12-11-2007), armourbearer (12-10-2007), Augusta (04-24-2008), Backwoods Presbyterian (04-22-2008), Dena (12-11-2007), joshua (12-10-2007), LadyFlynt (04-24-2008), Pilgrim (12-14-2007), ServantOfKing (12-12-2007), Simply_Nikki (12-10-2007), Southern Presbyterian (12-10-2007), VirginiaHuguenot (12-10-2007) | 
12-10-2007, 10:10 PM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 4,249
Thanks: 482
Thanked 1,625 Times in 654 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by bygracealone Now, in the example you've provided, I would suggest that the family first figure out what their true cost of living really is. Perhaps they need to consider lowering their standard of living... | This is good advice for all. The modern idea of "living the good life" has effectively produced a class of people who work like slaves so they can appear to live like kings.
__________________
Yours sincerely,
"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."
| | The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to armourbearer For This Useful Post: | Augusta (04-24-2008), Beth Ellen Nagle (04-22-2008), Dena (12-11-2007), Gloria (12-12-2007), historyb (12-15-2007), jaybird0827 (04-25-2008), joshua (12-10-2007), Josiah (12-11-2007), LadyFlynt (04-24-2008), panta dokimazete (12-14-2007), Pilgrim (12-14-2007), Quickened (12-14-2007), ServantOfKing (12-12-2007), Simply_Nikki (12-11-2007), Southern Presbyterian (12-10-2007), SRoper (12-11-2007) | 
12-10-2007, 10:10 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texarkana (Border of Texas and Arkansas)
Posts: 14,792
Thanks: 1,263
Thanked 1,419 Times in 749 Posts
| | | I agree with Pastor Bradley, Nikki. I apologize for not making that qualification in my original. | 
12-10-2007, 11:11 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 797
Thanks: 255
Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua I agree with Pastor Bradley, Nikki. I apologize for not making that qualification in my original. | Oh its quite all right my example was under normal circumstances. I know sometimes men lose their jobs or suffer from an accident or disease which would require that the wife work to help support the family. I was simply stating under normal circumstance where lets say.. a man whose job and earning power would be much less than the woman's earning power if she were to help with providing financially. Let me give a more contextual example. Husband and Wife have three children, Husband works a 9 to 5, but only makes maybe.. 25K a year. Now 25k a year for a family of 5, is well almost impossible, not that it can't be done. But we're talking about at or under the poverty at this point, where basic needs become a struggle. If the husband asks the wife to help, and her earning power is let's say 50k a year, would this be a problem is this distorting the her role under normal circumstances, since she ends up the primary provider? | 
12-11-2007, 12:13 AM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Indianapolis, In
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
| | | What if .... My situation is that I am about to marry and my future wife is older than I and is finished with her schooling and already have a full-time teaching job. I work full time as well but since Im still in school and I do not have a degree I cannot make a much money as her. Is she the primary-bread winner just because she makes more? What if we are both working and Im still taking care of the bills and how money should be handled?
Our long term goal is for me to get to seminary and for her to stay at home whenever we have children. 
__________________
David Franks
Indianapolis,IN
Christ Covenant OPC www.indyopc.org
Last edited by dfranks; 12-13-2007 at 08:41 AM.
| 
12-11-2007, 12:16 AM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Middle East
Posts: 852
Thanks: 49
Thanked 272 Times in 126 Posts
| | | Hello Nikki,
I would say no, it is not a problem. The crux is in the attitude of the wife; does she assume a dominant/domineering role because of her earnings? Then there is sin; but if she works with humility and respect for her husband, there is not.
When a man works under a man -- or a woman -- as his supervisor, he is not under their headship in a Biblical sense -- a spiritual sense -- but under earthly authority. Police and magistrates are not heads over men because they wield earthly authority over them. Neither is a woman under the headship of an earthly supervisor in any Biblical and spiritual sense.
Given the unusual economic situation modern man is in -- quite unlike earlier ages -- we need wisdom to function in it. I would say it is a gift from God that wives are enabled to help to a great extent providing finances for their families. If we are in Christ, and walk according to the Spirit of Christ there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1, 4).
Both men and women need be very careful working in the secular workplaces, as sin abounds, and snares there are aplenty. But in Christ we have the victory.
__________________
Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus
"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)
"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)
| | The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Jerusalem Blade For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 12:46 AM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 192
Thanks: 9
Thanked 58 Times in 34 Posts
| | | Some of the most envied men in seminary are those that have wives who can fully support them during those 3-4 years. Of course this raises a number of other issues, regarding the church's responsibility to a man in seminary, but that's for another thread ;-).
It is rare these days to find a home where both parents are not working full time. Families are busier than ever, and have less time for fellowship because of it. Normally you work more to buy more stuff to make you happy (supposedly). However, it doesn't make you happier. What me need more of us godliness with contentment. | | The Following User Says Thank You to ReformationArt For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 01:04 AM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: At the computer, duh. ;)
Posts: 1,085
Thanks: 31
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
| | I've thought about that a lot too, and I have to say that if my husband was going through seminary (pickin's is still slim, folks. No man in sight yet. ), I would be done with my nursing degree and would have absolutely no problem supporting us so he could concentrate on his studies. After that, I'd cut my hours down so I could stay at home more, but I'll still be working in a hospital, even if it's only once a week. Thoughts on the latter?
__________________
Susan Anita - Clan Scott!
Member of Grace Bible Church - Bakersfield, CA www.gbcob.org | 
12-11-2007, 02:44 AM
|  | McFadderator Minimizing | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Gabriel, CA
Posts: 3,459
Thanks: 700
Thanked 1,044 Times in 625 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Susita~~ I've thought about that a lot too, and I have to say that if my husband was going through seminary (pickin's is still slim, folks. No man in sight yet. ), I would be done with my nursing degree and would have absolutely no problem supporting us so he could concentrate on his studies. After that, I'd cut my hours down so I could stay at home more, but I'll still be working in a hospital, even if it's only once a week. Thoughts on the latter? | Sue, I think that your post should catapult your chances into the stratosphere. The only problem is that I never thought of Bakersfield as the "Grand Rapids of Calvinism" West of the Mississippi (that would be Escondido). 
__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? | | The Following User Says Thank You to DMcFadden For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 07:24 AM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 624
Thanks: 168
Thanked 27 Times in 22 Posts
| | How is headship correlated to who is working? How about this situation: the wife works full time and the husband stays home and homeschools the kids? Husband IS head of the household but his role is slightly different. The benefit is that there is one parent home with the kids. A question to tack on to the OP: is it sin for the dad to be working 2=3 jobs and/or 80-90 hours a week on a regular basis? Does that father have the ability to have headship? 
__________________ Quote:
Gail
Grand Rapids, MI
Affiliation: PCA
| | | The Following User Says Thank You to calgal For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 08:00 AM
| | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,713
Thanks: 91
Thanked 70 Times in 42 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by calgal A question to tack on to the OP: is it sin for the dad to be working 2=3 jobs and/or 80-90 hours a week on a regular basis? Does that father have the ability to have headship?  |
Assuming the husband is working this much out of necessity and not covetousness, I am very sure that a wife’s role as a helper definitely involves helping her husband, financially, to avoid this situation.
The wife’s primary role is as a helper to her husband (Gen 2:18), and I do believe her roles as both mother and homemaker are extensions of that role, and should not supercede it. So in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3, we see that it is primarily fathers who have the responsibility from God to raise up the children. The mother plays a very, very important role as well, and one that should not belittled in any way, shape or form, but at least within the context of a marriage, she is primarily involved in helping the husband fulfill his duty to raise up the children.
For example, and going to Gail’s question, I have heard some Christians claim that in his role as a provider, the husband should be willing to take multiple jobs etc so that the wife can stay home. I would disagree that his is always the case. Certainly sometimes the specific situation of a couple may require it, but it is not a requirement for godliness. A husband needs time, and energy to spend with his wife and children to nurture and grow them. He needs time and energy to be involved in the church and with the other members. This is not facilitated if he is spending most of his waking hours at work. I believe in such a situation it is perfectly noble of his wife to help him by taking up income producing activities, whether from the home or outside it, so as to contribute to the family and her husband’s success. Proverbs 31, particularly verses 16 and 24, show us that part of a wife’s role does involve participation in income producing activities, be they in or out of the home.
Likewise, if her husband is hindered from working because he is studying to change his profession, or preparing to enter the ministry of the gospel, it is perfectly right and noble for a wife to help him financially for the time being. Alternatively, a newly married man might want his wife to work to build up savings or eliminate debts to prepare themselves for when the Lord grants them children. Again, this is, I believe, an entirely reasonable aspect of her role as his helper.
I am aware of the fact that I need to tread carefully here, but I would go a little further and say that even when her contribution is not needed for the family to survive, there is still room and virtue for a wife to contribute financially to her household. Do not get me wrong, her emphasis in life is her husband, children and house in that order, and many women will simply have no time and energy after fulfilling those duties for income making. However, that is not always the case (I am thinking primarily of childless couples and couples where the children are older) and I believe a woman is welcome to work if she can do so without compromising her other duties.
The career-mindedness of worldly women is wrong, but as I have said before on this forum, I believe the bible’s position is not as conservative as some well meaning Christians make it out to be. Again, as I have said before, when God designed a society and gave it his laws and statues, that society (OT Israel) had many women who were the maidservants of men other than their husbands or fathers.
Going back to Proverbs 31 verses 16 and 24, I think it is important to note that these are not concessions to the imperfections of the family situation, but rather praiseworthy attributes of a virtuous wife. This is not a family in dire financial straits, but one that can afford servants and whose husband is an elder of the city. It is, according to the bible, a praiseworthy characteristic of a noble wife to be able to contribute financially to her household. The fact that she is contributing financially to the family is part of what makes her husband great (v23) and moves him to praise her (v28). It is not a shame or reproach against his ability as a provider.
Again, some women will not be able to do this due to their other commitments. Some husbands may simply prefer if their wives stay home. The husband certainly is the one who is primarily entrusted by God to provide for the family. A family should always, I think, attempt if possible to be able to survive on the husband’s earnings alone. However, as I have said, this does not exclude the wife helping either if needed, or voluntarily if she can.
__________________
Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia
| | The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to satz For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 11:01 AM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 517
Thanks: 159
Thanked 59 Times in 43 Posts
| | | One aspect here that does not seem to be covered, is that the Lord has also provided diaconate care to aid those who, especially through no fault of their own, have trouble making ends meet.
So the role of the wife is still in the first place the home and the children. And the deacons should be more than happy to assist.
Also, and this is often forgotten, Scripture does not say 'Keeper at home if you have children, but until such a point be in the (paying) work force'
And why would the wife want to take on the curse on the man, through Adam, as well as her own curse through Eve?
__________________
Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada
| 
12-11-2007, 11:08 AM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texarkana (Border of Texas and Arkansas)
Posts: 14,792
Thanks: 1,263
Thanked 1,419 Times in 749 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by BertMulder One aspect here that does not seem to be covered, is that the Lord has also provided diaconate care to aid those who, especially through no fault of their own, have trouble making ends meet. |  I stated earlier (emphasis added): Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua It is interesting what Paul says in 1 Timothy 5: Quote: |
3 Honor widows who are truly widows. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. 5 She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, 6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. 7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, 10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. 11 But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry 12 and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. 13 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. 14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
| We may deduce several things:
1. Widows are to be taken care of by their children, first, then the church (this doesn't mean mooching, but legitimate care, etc.). This would imply that it's not for the woman to be out in the world career-minded, etc. | Quote:
Originally Posted by BertMulder And why would the wife want to take on the curse on the man, through Adam, as well as her own curse through Eve? | Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Remember, God directed his words toward Adam when he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." His rebuke toward Eve was not about work but about childbearing (I'm glad I'm a man) | | | The Following User Says Thank You to joshua For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 12:32 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 1,461
Thanks: 224
Thanked 41 Times in 30 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by calgal How is headship correlated to who is working? How about this situation: the wife works full time and the husband stays home and homeschools the kids? Husband IS head of the household but his role is slightly different. The benefit is that there is one parent home with the kids. A question to tack on to the OP: is it sin for the dad to be working 2=3 jobs and/or 80-90 hours a week on a regular basis? Does that father have the ability to have headship?  | I'm not sure the question is one of headship but rather a question of whether men and women have different responsibilities in the family. It seems clear to me from Genesis that God cursed the man and the woman differently because they have different responsibilities. The man is primarily responsible to provide for his family, and the woman is primarily responsible to raise children. With the situation of a man who voluntarily stays at home while his wife works the roles have been reversed, and God's design has been ignored. | | The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SRoper For This Useful Post: | | 
12-11-2007, 12:38 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texarkana (Border of Texas and Arkansas)
Posts: 14,792
Thanks: 1,263
Thanked 1,419 Times in 749 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by SRoper Quote:
Originally Posted by calgal How is headship correlated to who is working? How about this situation: the wife works full time and the husband stays home and homeschools the kids? Husband IS head of the household but his role is slightly different. The benefit is that there is one parent home with the kids. A question to tack on to the OP: is it sin for the dad to be working 2=3 jobs and/or 80-90 hours a week on a regular basis? Does that father have the ability to have headship?  | I'm not sure the question is one of headship but rather a question of whether men and women have different responsibilities in the family. It seems clear to me from Genesis that God cursed the man and the woman differently because they have different responsibilities. The man is primarily responsible to provide for his family, and the woman is primarily responsible to raise children. With the situation of a man who voluntarily stays at home while his wife works the roles have been reversed, and God's design has been ignored. |   | |