1You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Everywhere I go, women are having babies and going back to work within a few months.

I know a lot of things that used to be in the home have been taken out- care of the sick, teaching, economic activity- and I understand going back to work once the kids start school. But I just don't get it with preschoolers and toddlers.

When I got married ('79) it was understood that Mom was home. You lived in a dump, a row house, a trailer, a fixer upper. But Mom was with little kids.

Now it seems like so many have a nice home and money and there is no problem with Mom going back to work. I find it hard to understand. I have wondered if it is just my geographic area or if the Reformed churches in general no longer consider Mom at home (or at least Mom with preschoolers) to be a scriptural mandate. Any thoughts?

I know there are commands not to be in debt, and maybe a husband wants the wife to work, so it can be complicated. But do people still see Mom at home as ideal in your circles, even if it means a poor home and lifestyle?

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

No. It's legalism around here.

May the Lord revive passion for this passage amongst his churches.

__________________
Taylor W. Otwell, Husband to Abigail
Member, Fellowship Bible Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas
Family Blog

This reminds me of a chapel message I heard recently. The speaker, (the president of the college) was telling us about a conversation he had with some egalitarian friends. He was pointing to this passage, among others, as he argued for the complementarian view. When he mentioned this clear teaching of Scripture his friends said, "Yeah, Paul would say that."

__________________
Ben Franks

I attend: Ketoctin Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
in Purcellville, Virginia
I'm a member of: Heartland Community Church (PCA)
in Wichita, Kansas
I blog here (along with my Dad): http://rrfranks.blogspot.com/
And I'm a student here: www.phc.edu

"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

Yes, it is sound doctrine- even in the face of Feminist rebellion, it is sound doctrine.

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

AK and Kansas?

I thought you people were the old fashioned conservative bible belt.

Bummer...but I feel better knowing that it isn't just my part of the northeast.

It is not feminism for women to go back to work. My pastor taught a really good sermon on this. Women's first duty is to their husbands not their kids although their kids are not to be neglected obviously. If a husband requires the wife to get a job, then that is what she is to do. If he wants her to stay home, then that is what she is to do. Proverbs 31 talks about a woman who takes care of her home but also goes out of her home and runs business. All that the woman does should be done as a help to her husband. We cannot here on PB say that women working is feminism. Each married couple has to make their own decision according to their need.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Around here, "old fashioned" means you only watch good television shows all night, don't drink, don't smoke, and know deep in your "heart of hearts" your a Christian. The reason for this is because we have utterly confused "Leave It To Beaver" style morals with Christianity.

Might jump in later.

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____________________________

~Beth Ellen Nagle~
Lakeside Church -Wales, WI (PCA)
Married to John
One wonderful daughter, Chaela Joelle


My work in digital art and photography: http://www.puritanboard.com/members/...ms-images.html

You know, I find it ironic that women were pushed to take charge of their lives, and throw off the slavery of motherhood (Sarah, this is really not directed at your response above, but just general thoughts about women in the workforce) which over time caused economic change. Splitting household income duties served to raise prices on homes & cars, but at the same time served to make wages unsuitable in a very large way for men who want to have their wives stay at home and take care of the kids. The irony is this: Now women are often forced, due to economic constraints, to work full time. From one "slavery" right into another.

I would rather be dirt poor than have my kid be looked after by some daycare...

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Rob S.
New Creation RPC
Kitchener, ON

"If a husband requires the wife to get a job, then that is what she is to do."

Well yes.....although most guys I know let the wife do whatever she wants in this area. If wife said she'd prefer to live in a dump and be home, hub would be OK with that.

"Each married couple has to make their own decision according to their need. "


Well yes.....although as Ed Welch might say, "welcome to the word 'need' ". 30 years ago during revival days, nobody "needed" a nice house, trips to Florida, eating out, a good retirement plan, or all the stuff we have now. What we needed was Mom to be at home, with preschoolers at least.

I know the economy has changed for the worse, but I still wonder if we give too much freedom, at the price of neglecting kids. I know in the old days extended familes lived together, and it is better and more natural when grandparents can step in and babysit, but even then, does Mom really need a 40 hour a week job out of the home?

I guess I can't help wondering if any men preach this as sound doctrine any more from the pulpit.

It sounds like you're pitting Solomon against Paul. A women can "go to the marketplace" (whatever that means. We don't exactly live in 900 B.C. Jerusalem.) and still not have official employment outside of the home. Where in the text of Proverbs or Titus does it say that this decision is up to the husband?

__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Obviously the Proverbs 31 woman was engaged in business, but I fear that some have made her out to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. The text seems to imply more of a home-based type of commerce. She wasn't Bill Gates!

I'm not advocating neglecting the children. Schedules can be worked out which prevents this. Men are quite able to care for children as women are. Every woman in my church is a stay at home mom, but that is because each husband has decided this for their wife not the church.

Yes, the home should come FIRST for a woman. However, to simply state that wife would go back to work for "big houses, second cars, and trips to Florida" simply isn't reality for some people, though it might be for others. There are some families that simply wouldn't be able to survive if the wife didn't pick up a part time job, work from home, etc. NEED means putting food on the table, clothes on the kids' backs, necessities for school, and paying all of your basic bills and rent. Please don't lump all working mothers in together. And many times, those that do put the home first, will have the wife work one shift, while the husband works another so that one parent is ALWAYS home with the kids (I've even known homeschooling families that work it this way).

__________________
JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

I would go so far to say that when a woman gets married she should stop working. But that's just me.

And personally, I think the reason that we don't consider the return to work as 'feminism' is that we've been marinating in the media-fuelled feminist cesspool so long that we don't even notice it.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

The husband is over his own wife not the church. The husband is under the covering of the church. The church is under the covering of Christ...His Word directs the church. Proverbs 31 was written by King Lemuel not Solomon. She is a homemaker and a business woman...she makes linen garments and sells them (outside of the home), she delivers sashes to the merchants, she considers a field and buys it, etc. She is out of the home doing business. That is what Proverbs says not me. Now, let's look at Titus. It says that women are to work at home. Well, they certainly are to just as the Proverb 31 woman did, but it doesn't say they cannot work outside of the home. Also, this text goes hand in hand with 1Tim 5:13. Paul is trying to reign in the slough and silly behavior of men and women. 1Tim 5:13 tells the women to quite being busybodies and gossips and get to work managing their homes. The Proverbs 31 woman managed her home well in and out of her home.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 02:03:45 EST-----

Well, that will be your decision for your wife, but it cannot be placed on other women otherwise you are usurping her husband's authority. I'm sure you are not advocating that I'm just saying...

Sarah,

You keep talking about the husband's authority, but the wife is only to submit to her husband in matters of prudence that the bible does not address. The husband does not have the authority to make his wife seek employment outside the home if the bible forbids it.

The Bible does not forbid the woman to work outside of the home. That is a false statement. Where does it forbid women to work outside of the home?

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 02:10:34 EST-----

Also, Lydia worked outside of the home. Paul didn't tell her to stop doing so.

Let's repeat some things...they do NOT contradict eachother:

1) the home should be PRIORITY

2) working outside the home is not forbidden

3) working outside the home can be done in such a manner that the kids aren't "farmed out"

4) not all women know how to sew, can, etc. I even had to learn to COOK on my own (thankfully I have an honest husband that doesn't claim everything I make is "wonderful", so I can learn by trial and error what works and what doesn't).

5) some women HAVE to work outside the home at least part time and a different shift. These women can have men that work their tail ends off on their jobs, they homeschool their children, they live as green and cheaply as possible (aka haven't seen the inside of a beauty salon or a bottle of nail polish for years and know where to buy the cheapest food, used clothes, etc), live in run down neighbourhoods or houses, AND STILL HAVE TO WORK! You want to say that it's wrong for the husband and wife to do what it takes to pay the bills, feed and clothe their kids, etc? Reality check people.


There is the IDEAL, then there are various people's REALITY. Not everyone lives a comfy, white collar, suburbanite existence.

Our(Kansans) divorce rate is probably higher than yours. My mother stayed home with us until my parents divorce in 1981. That is no doubt a factor.

__________________
Zack Flummerfelt
Evangel Presbyterian (PCA), layman
Wichita, KS


As of September 12, 2009 I am married to dear Jlynn!!

You're twisting my words. I did not say that it's wrong for women to "work" outside the home. All I did was say that it's wrong for husbands to require their wives to seek EMPLOYMENT outside the home if the bible forbids it. The question raised by the OP is whether Titus 2 forbids women from being employed outside the home. If you don't think it does, just stay on topic and say so.


What about being faithful to God's commands and then having faith? Isn't that the argument used around here against family planning? If the bible says it's wrong for a woman to be employed outside the home, emotional stories about dire circumstances don't really matter. Perhaps it's okay for a woman to be employed outside of the home, but that needs to be demonstrated exegetically if we are going to answer the OP.

I just wanted to step in and say that my husband works two full time jobs right now so I can stay home and grow this baby. I have asked him several times if he would like me to go out and get a job and he says no, he just wants me to take care of myself and the baby and learn ways to save money from home. So I spend my time learning about gardening and doing various other things that will help us to 1. save money and 2. be able to bless others. Also, one of our thoughts on gardening is that I can do it and take the excess to a farmers market to sell, thus helping my family. Yeah, it would be out side the home but only for a few hours one or two days a week while providing an excellent learning opportunity for our children in more ways than one. So, Titus 2 is not lost on us, we do know people, Christians (some reformed) who think I should go out and get a job but we're not going to argue with them, we just smile and nod and live how we feel would most glorify Christ.

__________________
Rose, wife of Cody
Momma to Cosette
Redding, CA

Love... it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13:6-7

My blog: Prudenza

I think it's safe to say that women are not strictly forbidden to work outside the home. However, with anything like this, there needs to be qualifications made. Paul is very adamant to say that women should be keepers at home. I also think that the Proverbs 31 Lady is an example of an exemplary woman who works not at the neglect of her home, but expressly for the purpose of keeping her home (children, husband, etc's needs taken care of).

So, I am sickened by the Feminism that has made it okay for women to be "career oriented," as there is absolutely nothing biblical about that. I also think that it is the wisest course that while there are children in the home, a mother should be there. But this doesn't mean that in times of necessity, or empty nest, etc. she may not go out and work, so long as it's godly work, and it's not at the neglect of the home.

And I also add that it is the husband's duty to "bring home the bacon" (unless providentially hindered), and he ought to do everything within his power to keep a situation from occurring that requires a woman to work outside the home, causing neglect. If this means cutting down on entertainment, unnecessary food, extravagant clothing, etc., so be it. I do agree that there may be providential circumstances that might require women to work, but as has been noted many times, extreme examples make for bad policy.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Exactly. It reminds of Christ rebuking those who were shreaking at gleaners on the Sabbath. It reminds me Donald Sutherland's version of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" where the non-pod people were exposed by finger-pointing screeching pod-people. How many Reformed believers today are turned away one way or another from churches on the basis of the wife's working status or the childrens' means of education? I know this has happend to people, especially Elders, in the PCA (supposedly the more liberal of NAPARC denominations). It has to be a tragedy happening in other denominations as well.

Thank you, Josh.

And many of those that do, reluctantly and under circumstances that cause them to, seek outside employment also do continue to keep their home and place their families first.

David, I can only state that you have no idea what you are talking about. Give yourself a couple of decades and some children. If you have a degree and are blessed enough to not be in a struggling job market, you may continue to be blessed with cluelessness of what other people in society deal with.

As stated, outside employment is NOT forbidden by Scripture. A PRIORITY on the home is stated in Scripture, but not to the forbidding of the other. There are many the live in poverty level, that rely daily on the Lord, and still come to the point where the wife has to work just to hold their family together.



For clarification, I am STRONGLY for the wife staying home with the children and keeping the home. I always have been and still am. But I also am not so legalistic, nor clueless as to what reality is for many people on the bottom tiers of society. If they want to keep their children, provide for them, etc, they might not be able to live the IDEAL, but rather balance the two. You can tell them to pray and wait on the Lord all you want, that is not going to help them when they need heat in the winter and food in their fridge. And it's not always due to neglect on the husband's part. He can work his rear off, work more than one job, and still "it's the economy, stupid".

Hey, thanks for this post. My wife gave birth 6 months ago, her desire is to be at home with the baby developing and caring for him and looking after the home. Most people do not 'get her' as most folks do the two parents working thing and put the kids in child care.

__________________
"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

I don't see how I am twisting your words. You implied that the Bible forbids women to work outside the home and I asked you to show me where it says that women cannot work outside the home. How is it that I am off topic? The OP is talking about women working outside the home and speaks of Titus. I also am doing that. I think you are strongly instructing me on how to behave because you cannot answer my question of where you think the Bible is forbidding women to work outside the home.

Sarah,

David didn't say that the Bible does, in fact, forbid a woman to work outside the home. He was simply trying to address what you had said about a husband telling his wife to work outside the home. David was simply intimating, if I understood him correctly, that a wife need not obey her husband in something if the Bible does, in fact, forbid it.

Is that correct, David?

I don't see the point of him saying that if he didn't think the Bible forbade women to work outside the home. Really, what is the point? Wouldn't he agree that the husband has the final say in all things? If I were saying that wives had to be prostitutes if their husbands wanted them to be, then he would be right to say that women don't have to obey that command from their husbands because it goes against the Bible. But since the Bible doesn't forbid the wife to work outside the home, then him bringing up the matter that wives don't always have to obey their husbands is a mute subject in this instance. It's like saying the wife doesn't have to obey the husband concerning the Sabbath if the Bible forbids observing the Sabbath....why say that? See where I'm coming from concerning his statement?

Sarah,

I'll let him answer why, I'm just trying to facilitate against talking past one another.

Those reformed people should not be telling you and your husband what you should be doing. I really and seriously do not understand people who get into other people's business. Why do people think that they have the right to usurp a husband's authority over his household and then question the wife why she isn't doing what they think she ought to do? You are right to do as your husband instructs you. You are being the Proverbs wife and serving him with all your ability....keep up the good job!

I think the context was
1 Tim 5:13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. NKJV

2 Thess 3:11 For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread. NKJV

But even if it isn't, I am not sure why, keeper at home would mean not working for pay or trade.

It may mean more about keeping to their own home as opposed to not working for money, or staying in their own home all day.

For sure they went to the market to buy food, fabric, etc. So what difference if they go to market to buy or sell?

Many would make bread, sell produce in the market, as Lydia sell fabric, and as our proverbs woman buy real estate and apparently would be an overseer of workers in a field possibly. Esp of other women harvesters.

And what of the single woman, single mothers and those who are married without children. Do they only stay home and make food and knit for their own family but not for anyone else unless they donate it?

So though her priority is to her home, and she keeps under the authority of her home, she is free to make money.

This is why I work with a company that helps women have full time incomes from part time work that can be done at home or in the normal course of daily duties, shopping etc. I do feel this is better than having them be in an office or other group work environment, or being an assistant to some man.

So are there some jobs that men or women should not take, obviously.

As a wise pastor asked his son who came home asking permission to work for a dairy where he explained he would have to milk the cows on the Lord's day because it was a necessity, the father said, well it is for the owner of the cows, but is that your calling of God to be a dairyman? If not you may want to seek employment that doesn't require you to miss the sabbath.

__________________
DonP

As a side note, I just wanted to share with you all a certain situation of a woman that I know.

She is a divorced reformed christian mother of four children......and felt commanded by Scripture that her place is in the home with her children. She does receive some child support (but it is very little) and she lives in a trialer home, and lives INCREDIBLY simply. While many people have criticized her for not having a full-time job ,including believers, she truly felt that she honored God more by being a good steward of the children that HE has entrusted into her care. She felt it was HER responsibility in bringing them up in the fear of the Lord, rather than having someone else care for or teach them. She was convinced that if she worked outside the home...that it would be at the spiritual expense of her children. She truly felt that she needed to honor God and His Word regardless of how grim her circumstances may have seemed at times! And I have to tell you that she has had some incredibly desperate times....times where she wasn't sure if she would have food on the table tomorrow, or gas for her car, or shoes for her children when they began outgrowing their old ones. But God has ALWAYS been faithful to provide for her!! I have seen Him put food on her table exactly when her children needed it, and I have seen Him bring shoes exactly when she prayed for them, and I have seen Him provide for her over and over and over again!! Honestly, I have been so blessed to see her strong convictions....her faithfulness and reliance upon the Lord...and to witness God's provision in her life when times seemed so hopeless!

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

It is sound doctrine because it is the word of God! So while I understand the question and what you are asking, I agree with Bill on this one.

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Brian Withnell
Deacon, OPC
Leesburg, Virginia

You cannot train for war in the midst of a battle. Prepare before the battle starts; if the battle is long and hard, you will wish you had.

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Scott Shahan
Member of First Evangelical Free Church, EFCA
firstfreesf.org
Sioux Falls, SD

Better is the sin which humbles me, than that duty which makes me proud.
Thomas Watson

Sarah, that's why I added this.

I do have one question for those who think that Prov 31 is a slam dunk for women working as they please. Would the fact that her husband sits with the elders of the land not suggest that they are, in fact, older, and no longer have children in the home? I know it is speculation and that the age gap in marriage at the time was greater, but does that not carry some weight in the argument?

12 She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life. This verse isn't talking about just old men and women. It's about a woman throughout her life

28Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her: I think this shows that her children are still with her.

Someone can correct me, but I don't believe that it was only old men who sat at the gaits of city.

Lady Flynt, I do not mean that in any way we can fail to have compassion on the legitimately poor. I know people right now who are laid off, lost overtime, or developed a physical disability. Their economic woes are not spiritual sins or laziness or anything like that! Things are bad, and I know the awful struggles people have. We've lived in a trailer and few fixer uppers/handyman delight type houses, and I've known what it is to have the toaster die and you don't have 10 bucks for another one.

But in a perfect and ideal world, I think God's answer is diaconal ministry or caring friends and relatives supporting the Mom of preschoolers being at home. Not Mom going back to work. In the end of Acts Ch 2 & 4 the holy spirit fell and they started sharing with the needy and nobody had a need. I would love to see that happen. On the not too common occasions when we could give away substantial money, we usually gave to struggling families.

At the very least, I wish this was seen as a goal to at least pray for in our churches, and not as something outdated and no longer applicable. We will never be perfect in this life and we all struggle, but I wish this was at least presented as God's will for Mom's today if possible, and the best thing for the children.

Good points.