Saints,

Are there any valid religious objection(s) to vaccinations? In the past we have stated religious objections but I am not sure they are valid. I am wondering if my objections are merely ethical?

__________________
Denton Elliott
Husband of one wife, father of three
Deacon - Christ Community Church
Monroe, GA
Student: Whitefield Theological Seminary M.Div program

Do you use any other medical 'means'?

WHAT OBJECTION HAVE YOU STATED?

__________________
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary

Nathan, your questions to me are why I started this thread. I would like to hear others' views. Like I said, I am not sure the religious objections I have used in the past are valid and that is why I am asking here if anyone else has objected to vaccines.

I think the abortion issue could/would be religious.

__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

Jessi,

There is no doubt that abortion is objectionable and easily refuted using Scripture. This thread is in regard to vaccination only.

To start, if you believe them to be harmful to the health of those vaccinated see WSC:

Q. 67. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Q. 68. What is required in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment requireth all lawful endeavors to preserve our own life, and the life of others.

Q. 69. What is forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment forbiddeth the taking away of our own life, or the life of our neighbor unjustly, or whatsoever tendeth thereunto.

Also, see WLC:

Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

-----Added 8/10/2009 at 11:57:30 EST-----

If the reasons are ethical would'nt they be religious [for us]?

__________________
Chris
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte (PRC)
Student, Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary
SC

...hope is nothing but the nourishment and strength of faith.
~ Calvin's Institutes III.ii.43

Chris,

This is excellent! I never even thought about the 6th coming into play...duh on my part. Now I feel comfortable with stating I have religious objections!

Aborted fetuses/babies are often used in the process and culturing of vaccines. Google 'abortion' and 'vaccine' to find details from myraid sources.

__________________
Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

Brother, I think she's referring to this:

Vaccines cultured on aborted fetal tissue?

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Ahhh...I didn't follow the connection. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for misunderstanding Jessi. And thanks for bringing this to my knowledge.

Forgive me, please, but I'm not sure what connections are being discussed. The notion that aborted fetuses are used for vaccine production is downright silly--while many vaccines used to be cultured (say from egg), more often recombinant technology allows them to be produced from cloned tissue, often mouse, insect, etc. And religious objections to vaccinations from the 6th commandment? If the WCF tells us that " the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life" is sinful, in what way does that adversely apply to the MMR, OPV, etc? Using "religious objections" to argue against vaccination (for example by trying to claim how harmful they might be) flies in the face of a whole lot of evidence that they are helpful--note how less often we see iron lungs these days from polio, scarred faces from small pox, male sterility from mumps, etc. I suspect it's a whole lot easier to speak against vaccination from common but harmful disease when many of us live in countries like the US where standard of living (which goes along with food preservation, the ready availability of food refrigeration, good sanitation and garbage removal, clean water, and so forth) and medical care availability is much better than in many less developed countries. I might suggest being careful in using Scripture to argue something like this--it likely would be a stretch of exegesis, and might cause some unconvinced people to look askance at Christianity.

__________________
Eric
Deacon, PCA
Slow-moving seminarian
South Carolina

EricP,
Here is one of many sources that list the vaccines that use cells as part of the culturing process: Vaccines, Abortion & Fetal Tissue

I would like to be wrong--do you have a source for your second sentence?

The question of moral complicity with regard to using the vaccines that continue to be cultivated on the fetal cell line of aborted babies (though the abortions took place 30 years ago or more) may not be black and white, but the fact remains that the Rubella Vax, and the Chicken Pox vax are indeed created from fetal cell lines.

The easiest scenario that I have heard to determind moral complicity is this:
if a man was murdered and his wife authorized the use of his organs, would your accepting those for transplant make you culpable for his murder??

The parents who aborted the babies used for vaccines did not do it to create vaccines, just as the murderer in the above situation did not murder in order to give organs. It is obvious that if either baby or man were murdered for medical benefits it would be a no-brainer that the accepting the benefits of this death would be evil.

Here is the CMDA on vaccines and abortions.

Here is an excerpt from one of their articles:You can find their moral complicity statement here.

I agree. Choosing not to vaccinate may be your preference but a Biblical mandate? I don't think so. If you use a Sixth Commandment arguement then you still have to wrestle with evidence about whether the vaccinations do more harm than good. From what I have read, much less than convincing me that more harm than good has occured, I have concluded quite the opposite. While a brother or sister may disagree with my conclusions, we should be careful not to judge the preferences of our fellow believers (not that anyone on PB has done so).

__________________
Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

If the vaccination counters a highly contagious disease, then refusing to vaccinate is a violation of the 6th commandment because it endangers both you AND the health of your community.

A civil government, in such a case, for the public good, may make it a law that some vaccinations MUST be mandatory for all citizens.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Jon,

If vaccines 1) are created (some of them) using aborted babies, and 2) harm the immune system (there is plenty of evidence), then I believe we surely can and should claim the 6th to defend not vaccinating our children. I do agree that we shouldn't condemn others for getting their children vaccinated, but we should inform them shouldn't we?

-----Added 8/10/2009 at 02:39:18 EST-----

I know of no vaccine that is proven to be full-proof. Also, if vaccines protect people, then not vaccinating our children MUST NOT affect any other person already vaccinated right? :-)

Also, I believe in freedom. The government should not hold a gun to my head and force me to vaccinate my children when 1) there is no full-proof vaccine, and 2) there is plenty of evidence that they harm our immune system.

A negative to not getting vaccines (even the ones created via abortions):
Rubella is most dangerous for pregnant women.
Infants not receiving Rubella vax may not be seriously harmed, but they may pass it to pregnant women (b/c they happen to be around them a lot).
Pregnant woman's baby is now at risk.
That is not loving your neighbor.

Interesting Jessi. So you are saying we have a double dilemma. On the one hand we can vaccinate and possibly harm our children and on the other we can not vaccinate and possibly harm an unborn child if our child is around a pregnant woman.

A balanced article on the fetal tissue in vaccinations and the moral ethical problems associated with it. Vaccines, Abortion & Fetal Tissue

with a list of alternative vaccines not made with aborted fetal tissue

__________________
James N. Walling
Center Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)
IL

κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς

View some of my photography at http://www.puritanboard.com/members/...s-my-life.html

We are about to be bombarded with government claims of the dire necessity to be vaccinated for the "swine flu." Much misinformation has been propagated from both government and non-government sources about the true nature of this viral strain.

However, the Washington Post reported three weeks ago that the H1N1 vaccine will definitely contain Thimerosol (which contains Mercury), Formaldehyde, and Aluminum - three known neurotoxins, with Thimerosol having received great publicity over the past 15 years as being a potential contributor to the rise of autism in young children.

While establishment medical authorities are casually dismissing the link and calling people "kooks" who attempt to make the correlation, numerous doctors are on record as to also questioning the impact that thimerosol is making.

So if you feel that a vaccination poses a health risk to your children, by all means forego it. Your concern is your family, not the profits of Novartis or their obviously biased "experts" who tell you there is no problem. The reality of the matter is that washing hands frequently, having a diet high in fruits and vegetables, and being careful in settings where there is much social contact are often all that is needed to prevent catching the virus. I work in a hospital, have followed the above advice, and have not had the flu for as long as I can remember - despite going several years without a vaccination. (Admittedly, I do not have much direct patient contact, but I am still on the nursing floor units frequently.)

With regard to scriptural support, I suppose any passage that reinforces your care and provision for your family would be adequate.

__________________
Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

The sixth commandment should be a powerful incentive TO vaccinate. It's the same logic as wearing seat belts. While there have been occasions when seat belts have been detrimental to survival in a crash, in the vast majority of cases they save lives.

Another reason--anyone not vaccinated should not EVER go to a developing country. In the states where most people are vaccinated, there is herd immunity so the unvaccinated are protected against some of the infectious diseases. Overseas the infectious diseases that are prevented by vaccination are rampant. Churches and mission agencies are negligent if they permit an unimmunized young person to go on a short term trip.

__________________
Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

We struggled a lot with the question of giving our children MMR (containing Rubella, which was initially created using tissue from aborted babies) as well as Varicella. I'm surprised more people don't know about the connection with abortion - even the Merk website clearly states that this is how the vaccinations originated (although it also clearly states that the vaccines themselves don't contain fetal tissue, which sometimes people mistakenly believe). The Catholics tend to be more up to date on these things than we are.

Jessi's point is the impasse we came to - not only would a child not vaccinated against Rubella be a danger to any pregnant women, but also an unvaccinated girl grows up to be a women who could potentially be exposed to the virus while pregnant, almost certainly hurting her unborn baby.

So, our solution at the moment is to allow the MMR vaccine, but not Varicella. Varicella was produced quite recently, despite the outcry (at least from the Catholic community) about the MMR vaccine's production using fetal tissue. Although chicken pox can be dangerous as an adult, we don't perceive the danger of not being vaccinated to be anywhere as bad as Rubella.

__________________
Catherine
PCA
Waldorf, MD

Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good,
and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord.
Proverbs 16:20 ESV

Yep. We give most vaccines and are still weighing Rubella--I am not concerned about vaxing for chicken pox, I had it and survived.
I am pretty convicted about causing pain or death to a person with a weakened immune system (elderly) or pregnant women just for my ideals. At this point, I feel that my pro-life stance, which is the right and only proper stance, could put others in detriment, while not actually doing anything for the cause, when it comes to vaccines. (It could be argued, though, that future vaccines will be created via aborted babies because so many accept its use in history--I would hate to have my name on the list of approvers.)

It is a hard choice. But in the end, I do not feel personally responsible in anyway for the abortions, even if I did use the vax. I feel that what man meant for evil, God meant for good can apply (it may not, though--I am not basing my theology on this issue!) and that the babies aborted were not my fault, even if my children (and even me--I was vacinated as a child for Rubella) do somehow benefit from it. I would in no way support the killing of a baby FOR my good--and that is currently illegal. But I don't feel that I would be sinning to vax. So I don't have moral/religious convictions not to vax--though for the practical argument (will my use appear as support for future abortions?) I am withholding for now.

I do think I would have religious convictions not to vax against HPV. If sin causes that disease, I don't know that I feel right denying that fruit.

Yes, I was just about to mention the Vaccine for HPV! I read some states are requiring schools to mandate the vax....I would certainly protest against this if I were a parent! And there has been much debate about this vaccine and whether it leads to promiscuous behavior.

HPV Vaccine: State Legislation

__________________
Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

It really is important for you guys to get your children vaccinated. There are many diseases out there that are life-threatening and not vaccinating them puts them in danger, and I'm sure one of the Ten Commandments (7th) comes into play here. There are also vaccinations that are not needed bc the disease isn't life-threatening to most ppl like the flu vaccination for example....so if you want to skip this one as I do go for it. I feel it's irresponsible not to vaccinate your children.

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Thou shalt not commit adultery?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

lol sorry just woke up! 6th commandment....

I highly urge my fellow Pbers to do research as to this swine flu and its so called vaccine. You guys are basing your need to take this vaccine on the notion that the government is ethical and paternal.

This is not a clear cut case as thou shalt not kill or the Biblical case law against leprosy. There are many worldview factors that are coming to bear on this issue which will set a precedent as to what rights the government has over personal freedom and privacy of the individual citizens.

I for one will try everything in my power to not have to take this vaccine since the vaccine makers have been granted immunity and other fishy things.

Please brothers and sisters do not be naive.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Won't you only cause issues with a woman's unborn baby if the mother has never been vaccinated? I remember I had a bad vaccination as a child and had to get a "real" vaccine later in life. Also, the vaccine itself is not 100% so I can't see how not getting vaccinated could violate the 6th. or 7th

I don't consider the swine flu situation to be normative for the broader question of vaccinating children. Those of us old enough to remember the last swine flu vaccination fiasco are suitably jaundiced about this one.

I'd also recommend avoiding yellow fever vaccine unless absolutely necessary.

On the other hand, I would not have much regard for a parent who wouldn't vaccinate a child for polio or tetanus.

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

There are no new cases of polio since they stopped administering the live vaccine which was the cause of perfectly healthy individuals contracting polio!!!

If by 'no new cases' you mean no cases reported since mid July, 2009.

Without looking, how many cases of polio worldwide since the beginning of 2009?

Map
Wild Poliovirus Weekly Update

Numbers
Wild Poliovirus Weekly Update

In Pennsylvania the law states that you may object if you hold a strong belief similiar to a religious conviction. We object to them and five out of six of my children are not vaccinated. After looking at the issue I've come to the conclusion that they are more harmful than helpful (especially since you can go back and see the diseases on the decline way before a vaccine for a particular disease was introduced). Therefore, I'm convicted that it's not in their best interest and would have no problem claiming a religious exemption.

And for the arguement that my children will put others at risk, I ask: How can that be if your children are vaccinated and the vaccines really work? You should have nothing to worry about. Right?

You can look at state laws for exemption here:

Vaccination Liberation Home Page

(good site but I'm not endorsing everything on it)

__________________
Dan
OPC
Pennsylvania

“Christ’s sacrifice is absolutely infinitely sufficient and utterly secures the salvation of anyone for whom it was made. To deny that would be to deny the gospel.” --- John Gerstner

What about infants that are not yet vaccinated? Are you not putting them at risk?

-----Added 8/10/2009 at 11:08:42 EST-----

Many physicians and scientists have put years of earnest study into the question: "Do the small quantities of toxins (particularly Timerosol/mercury) contained in some vaccines pose a real risk of inducing autism in children?" The answer has been a resounding "No" from epidemiological, cellular, and molecular mechanistic studies. The British physician who started the "Vaccines cause autism" scare has been conclusively shown to be a fraud and crook. Even the "Vaccines cause autism" movement has recently shied away from linking the onset of autism with mercury.
It would be good if you did not marginalize the hard work done by many individuals who are intensely concerned with finding the causes of autism.

__________________
Nate
Protestant Reformed Churches in America
Ann Arbor, MI

Considering non-efficacy of the vaccines, I say no.

In the Philippines, the largest smallpox epidemic occurred between 1917 and 1919, in which there were 162,503 cases and 71,453 deaths. All cases were vaccinated.

In England, smallpox vaccinations were made compulsory in 1853. Between 1863 and 1865, the population rose 7% and the death rate rose by 41%. Between 1870 and 1872, the population rose 9% and the death rate from smallpox rose 123%.

Following the introduction of compulsory immunization, the incidence of diphtheria increased by 30% in France, 55% in Hungary, 200% in Switzerland and 625% in Germany. In Sweden, diphtheria virtually disappeared without immunization.

Germany began compulsory diphtheria vaccinations in 1939. After that country was thoroughly vaccinated, cases of the disease skyrocketed to 150,000. France initially rejected diphtheria vaccinations because of the disasters she witnessed in other countries due to its use. But after the German occupation, France was forced into submitting to the shots. By 1943, cases of diphtheria in that country had soared to nearly 47,000. At the same time in nearby Norway, which refused vaccinations, there were only 50 cases.

References:
Trevor Gunn, "Mass Immunization, A Point in Question", (Cutting Edge Publications, 1992), ISBN 0-9517657-1-X
P. Airola N.D., PhD. "Everywomans Book", Health Plus, Phoenix, Arizona.
Scientific American, April, 1955, p.98.
H.L. Coulter and B.L. Fisher "DPT - A Shot in the Dark"

How Safe Are Vaccines? - TIME

Could you state your beliefs as to why measles has become endemic in England at precisely the time that vaccination levels are dipping below herd immunity due to the scares brought on by Andrew Wakefield and company? Also, could you explain why Larry Brilliant's tactics to combat polio in 3rd world countries is actually working when his tactics are based on immunization?

I'll keep trying to get access to your citations to read them for myself.

Tell that to my sister. Her son was developing normally. At 2 1/2, he took his childhood vaccines and within hours of taking the vaccines, he started having seizures. He almost died. Not long after the episode, he was diagnosed with autism. His doctor linked it to the vaccines.

-----Added 8/11/2009 at 12:06:39 EST-----

I will add that we've had three individuals (one being me, one being my nephew mentioned above) who have had adverse reactions to childhood vaccines. We oppose them on religious grounds for this reason. When people in my gene pool take vaccines, they tend to have results that are damaging. As far as I'm concerned, if I know that vaccines affect people in my family negatively, then I am putting my children in harms way by allowing them to have them.

In regard to the question of pregnant women who haven't been vaccinated. If the woman has had the childhood disease, she passes her natural immunity on to the child when she nurses the child.

According to my personal doctor, the Hep B given to babies at birth compromises their immune systems. She fully expects to see a rise in liver cancer in the next 10 years linked to the Hep B shots given to babies at birth. The doses they give to babies are the same doses they give to adults. It's too much for a baby's immune system to handle.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

People have rare allergic reactions to peanut and many other substances as well. Aspirin has caused such seizures as well.

These are rare and unfortunate occurrences, but do not disprove the great efficacy of vaccines and the millions of lives improved, preserved, and saved due to vaccination programs.

Isolated testimonials, honing in on one type of questionable vaccination while ignoring the solid evidence for all the others, or relying on internet data or self-published books or non peer-reviewed articles are not convincing strategies.

Jonathan Edwards was one of the earliest proponents of vaccines. Sadly he died because of it.

Anyway, cool thread.

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore