Before bedtime i read the scriptures to my 2 year old daughter with my wife. Before we do this i tell my daughter to go and get the book. She is always quick to get up and run to my study to grab a copy of the scriptures (it's too big for her so she pulls it out of its place on my shelf and waits for me to grab it) then she runs to bed and waits for me to come and read it to her. This time when i told her to get the book she shook her head and said no. Normally, if she says no to us....she is disciplined. But this time i wasnt sure what to do. I was afraid that if i disciplined her for not getting the scriptures that somehow she would associate getting spanked with reading the word. And not want anything to do with the scriptures in the future. That led me to think about discipline during family worship or how about discipline for being disruptive during family prayer time?

Does any of this make sense? what do yall think? How do you deal with those situations? Any help would be greatly appreciated as always

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Gregory
Reformed Baptist
Sacramento, California

Just curious. Would you be ok with her associating not being disciplined with getting a pass on disobedience relative to family worship?

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Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

1. Remind her that you are her authority and that you know best

2. Remind her that she is to obey her parents

3. If she still refuses because she is being stubborn as many 2 year olds are, discipline should be done, but associate as best as you can the disobedience with the punishment, not the actual deed (i.e. not getting the Bible makes you a bad person, but that disobey daddy is the wrong thing to do).

4. Spanking should not come without reminder of the wrongdoing. In the reminding, associate the spanking with disobedience, not the Bible, as best you can. Avoiding the punishing altogether will associate something worse: that disobedience is okay or that punishment is avoidable during family worship

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Nathan Riese
Under Care, PCA
Trinity Presbyterian Church, Aledo, Illinois
Current student at MBBC
Future student of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary
www.gpts.edu

oohhhh great point!

-----Added 10/21/2009 at 11:57:10 EST-----

AHA! That makes great sense! Awesome....thank you.

Just as an encouragement as well: duty is ours, and the results are God. It is God Who works in our little ones, despite us at times. Relax. God's got it under control (by the way, I'm preaching to myself!)

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Did you ask her why she said no? That would have been my first response. Why did she say no?

BTW, I am going somewhere with this.

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Norseman Moderator

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

But flesh it out: why are you her authority? God has placed you there (which, I know, carries a huge weight of responsibility - all the more reason to infuse each disciplinary session with God's word.) We try to do this, and it really helps with recidivism. I know this is more difficult with a two-year old, but there are ways to phrase it so they'll catch the meaning.

We also try to focus on the sin itself, and not so much the context. If we spank a child, the aftermath should be a review of why the spanking was given and the sin they have committed, and an emphasis on repentance. The context therefore (getting the Bible) becomes irrelevant in light of the focus on the particular sin, and not the situation.

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

No i did not. I know i should have but i was just taken aback. But now after all the great advice i know better. I lost my mind for a wee bit.

maybe it doesn't have to be such an either/or. A two-year-old still has limited understanding of first principles. Ethical discussion may not yet be very fruitful, especially at bedtime. But she's still small enough (I'm assuming...) for you to be able to use main force. You could simply cart her, and the book, wherever you want to be, hold her firmly but lovingly until her objections subside, then carry on as normal. She would probably get the point, without any danger of negative associations

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JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

In addition to Randy's good point, about needing to ask further and find out why she refused, I'd also ask you where you are currently in your reading of Scripture? Could it be that you have been reading some text that might frighten her or otherwise be bothering her two-year old mind?

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Wayne Sparkman, Th.M.
Director, PCA Historical Center, St. Louis, MO
Blogs: The Continuing Story and PCA History Blog

On the same vein:

"yes darling, I realize that Book is too heavy for you. I am sorry to ask you to carry such a heavy Book. Why don't we go together and get it..." Scooping her up....

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Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

I think if you associate the punishment with her disobedience as previously stated and she generally gets punished for disobedience she will get your consistancy. I know a family whose children were wild for 6 days and 22 hours out of the week. Then on Sunday when it was time to go to church they were chastised for the same behaviors. These children grew to hate church because that was the only place they were ever punished.

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Evon Taylor
Community Bible Church
Swansea, Il

This may seem out of place but I really benefit from these post. I dont have any children of my own at the time, but these threads help me prepare for when I do have my little ones. Thank you all.

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"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

At only 2 years of age, just try to have a brief Bible reading and prayer time right before bed with father, mother and child (any other siblings) present. My thought is no more than 25 minutes, less if there are no prayer requests.

If you do this right, this will become one of your favorite times together.

Hold the child, you or her mother and just do what you normally do- Bible reading and prayer, and try to maintain attention, as much as that is possible with a 2 year old.

Set that pattern of attention, quiet, and reverence, and you reading Scripture and leading prayer albeit briefly and worry about other ways to discipline at a later (than 2 years old) age.

It's also important that you try, by God's grace to instill good order in your home generally (that includes the Lord's Day and brief times of family worship at other times) but as a general characteristics.

A disciplined Christian life takes much time, effort and leadership on your part as the man of the home, but you must commit to doing it, imperfect though you will be. Remember, even the problems that occur in trying to live that way are ordained of God and will cause you to all to grow in Him.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

I agree with Vonnie. I insist on obedience during family worship time. It can be very disruptive, especially when you have lots of little ones (although in my experience I'm usually only really training one at a time since mine are all 18-20 months apart). My husband is leading, so I'm on toddler patrol, taking kids out to correct if needed so the older kids aren't quite as distracted. This age is really critical to teach obedience with as close to 100% consistency as possible. That said, if the book is too big for her and you think that might be the problem, you could *ask* her if she could get the book. My kids know that if I ask them if they can do something they can say no if they don't think they can. If I tell them to do something, that's a completely different thing. A lot of people use asking and telling interchangeably which I think is confusing to kids (i.e."can you hold my hand while we cross the street?")

If you want to avoid discipline confrontations as much as possible during family worship, make a point not to tell her to do anything that you're not willing to enforce with correction. Hope that helps!

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Catherine
PCA
Waldorf, MD

Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good,
and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord.
Proverbs 16:20 ESV

I believe it - can't agree enough. It has to be 24/7 consistency or it won't work stick properly in the child's mind, whatever your approach may be.

Also, looking through here and the other child discipline thread, I'm noticing that my approch may be a little on the heavy side. I don't know that my approach is actually necessary in other households, it's just that when you are dealing with 10 horses, it seems to work better to hold the reins a little tighter than you normally would. If a team of stallions gets away from you, there's a good chance you'll get trampled in short order!

Kevin, as the Dad of 10, I'm eager to hear whatever your approach is! Even with only 3 (soon to be 4), they still can feel like a team of stallions. Or cats.

Sound wisdom Scott. If it is not of faith in the first place, it is not worth anything anyway.

God responds to our faith, not how perfect our family worship time is. Lot's of good, proactive advice here. When applied as expressions of faith, God will supersede all of your and your daughter's fumbles along the way.

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Reed DePace
Pastor, 1st PCA
Montgomery, Al


busy seeking
a better home.
~ Heb 11:14-16

If you tell her that disobedience, defiance and disrespect are the offenses for which she gets spanked, and make that consistent and immediate, the association should be with the three D's. If you take anything and not use discipline with that one thing, then it is possible that the child will associate that bad behavior is "okay" within the context of that particular activity ... I'm sure you don't want that.

For my 6-year-old, it is imperative that I make sure that if he understands what we have said (not easy, given he is autistic) that if he disobeys, then he gets discipline. At this point, there are contexts in which we just don't allow bad behavior (during our Bible reading ... also just before bed) and times where we have to make sure he understands (being told something "new"). But a "no!" response is likely to get a repeat of the command (to see if his "no" is obedient ... sometimes he says no all the while doing what we have asked, so he is just saying that he is not happy about it the only way he knows how). If he is not obedient, he gets a spank.

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Brian Withnell
Deacon, OPC
Leesburg, Virginia

You cannot train for war in the midst of a battle. Prepare before the battle starts; if the battle is long and hard, you will wish you had.

Well, two-year-olds need discipline and must be respectful. But I think it's appropriate that this situation gave you pause. We want worship to come from the heart, not from fear of punishment. I'm not sure what you should do, but I think the fact that you were sensitive to the heart issue will serve you and her well in the years ahead.

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Jack K.
PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado