something ive wondered...

Before God, what constitutes marriage?
1) when she says yes?
2) consummation?
3) after a lengthy 4 hour ceremony??

I know there are various traditions and such..- the Orthodox Jewish weddings, the Christian weddings.

but scenarios!!

a) no physical witness, no pastor, etc.. the woman says yes- then they consummate. is this valid?
b) they state their intentions before a pastor and sign a family Bible. (only 3 physically present)

why does one get a hunting license? because to hunt without a license is against the law- hence a license gives permission for something that would otherwise be illegal- hunting, fishing, beer, food, business, etc.

so why marriage licenses? is getting married without the states permission illegal?

and wouldn't a family Bible hold up in a court of law as acceptable proof of marriage or something?

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

This is a very interesting question; particularly for me, because I've been engaged for at least a year (I go to school 500 miles away from my fiance, and her parents won't pay for her school if she get married and unless I can support her). I look forward to hearing some answers based on the Bible.

__________________
Patrick Arnold
Covenant OPC, Brighton, MI
MA student in philosophy at the University of Michigan

It really is interesting...to my knowledge, the Bible doesn't give any information about how a marriage ceremony is to be conducted. Sometimes it gives details about the events surrounding a marriage, like with Ruth and Boaz, but not about the actual ceremony itself. And a post-exile Jewish wedding ceremony would've been very different from a 2nd century Christian wedding ceremony, which is different than our own wedding ceremonies.

In a way, that's good, because it's an instance where God lets our own creativity and customs come up with something that we think is special. But it's curious that even some basics (like having a pastor present) are absent.My guess would be that since it's a fairly straightforward affair that people have been doing right for centuries, the Lord didn't see the need spend time on that particular detail.

__________________
Vaughn Shideler
St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church
Toronto, ON, Canada

Marriage is a contract, so the answer is in the oath, not the sex. Adultery in the Bible is much broader than a sex act, as the WCF shows. It's a violation of an oath. That's why you have witnesses. There are rules for oaths (vows).

__________________
Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member PCA church but currently attending EV Free church. San Luis Obispo County, California.

there is also the wedding feast at cana too.

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

okay, but elaborate further.

assuming that the father of the bride has given permission to the man to propose

assuming the man proposes, the woman accepts. and they sign the family Bible infornt of another person. or the woman accepts infront of another person (inother words having a verifiable witness that she did accept)

would the contract be in full effect at the moment she says yes? meaning that relations would then be permissible and not sinful (fornication)

fyi to all. so we are clear im not promoting alternatives and such, but simply asking is the alternative acceptable before God.

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

I vote for consummation since there are no prescribed forms for oaths or ceremonies. Isaac took Rebekah straight to the tent when she got back.

He brought her into the tent, "took" her, and she became his wife. Ceremonies are nice aspects of culture but they aren't necessary to have a legitimate marriage in God's eyes.

__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

Wouldn't, then, any copulative act between a man and a woman be looked upon as a 'marriage'?

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

That's what Peter Ruckman and his sect of fundy independent Baptist's teach.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

According to OT law one is betrothed to their husband or wife to be (Deuteronomy 22; cf. Matthew 1:18) which includes the 'bride-price' (Exodus 22:15-16) paid to the father. This indicates a commitment on the part of the man, even a promise to leave his father and mother and cleave with his wife. And thus, by implication, we may speak of an oath to be taken on the part of the man if not the woman.

Was not even Christ wedded to His bride by an oath? Psalm 2:7-8

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

no i don't think so. Because a reasonable inferrance would be that there was a contract- proposal and acceptance of marriage. where as what you are suggesting would be without any contract. so the copulative acts are done outside a contract, and without any commitiment.

hence a proposal of marriage is a proposal of a contract. and acceptance of proposal is acceptance of contract

again the giving and accepting of a contract would be the key that differentiates between proper spousal relations and fornication?

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

Tell me if I am wrong, but my feeling on this issue is, that as God also has given us the magistrate to regulate society,

that the rules of the society (magistrate) in which one lives have much to do with what constitutes marriage. As well, of course, the rules of one's church.

Thus, Isaac, in the rules in existence at that time, properly married Rebecca. Same as the marriage between Jacob and Lea.

__________________
Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

if i sign a business license- im entering into agreement between me, and the state, thats fine

but if a husband and wife were to sign a marriage licenses- wouldn't that be a 3 way agreement (state, wife, husband) ?

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

I didn't read the first post properly. You were asking what constitutes a marriage not necessarily what makes up a proper approach to marriage. Sorry for the confusion.

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

no problems!

__________________
Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

You make a good point, though I'm not sure I agree. I think Poimen is right on: it's when we promise, or make an oath, to marry that person. To me the state has no business determining who is or who is not legally married. I would be happy with the state not recognizing marriage at all - as some others have pointed out, in many ways a marriage license seems silly. But you do make a valid point that we should follow the state's laws concerning marriage. But God doesn't follow the state's definition of marriage, so in His eyes marriage no doubt begins with the promise.

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

*shrug* I thought about that, but it looks like the problem is more Isaac's than mine. Maybe BertMulder is right and we should just do whatever our society does.

__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

I considered this quite a bit before getting married also. To be in a state of marriage is to be in a covenant of sorts with one another where two people have made promises/ oaths to one another. The reason why any sexual act doesn't create a marriage is because there is not always the promise/ oath involved.

Also, there is a change of authority involved. Sons leave their parents and cleave to their wives. Daughters are given from the authority of their father to the authority of their husbands.

__________________
Ashley H.
Member of Immanuel Presbyterian Church (PCA)
DeLand, FL
~Wife to Mike~
~All good which could be thought or desired is to be found in Jesus Christ alone. - John Calvin~

What about when Jesus tell's the woman at the well she has five(?) husbands? Is this not suggesting that the act of physical union is marriage in itself?

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

My Blog

Nathan, it would actually indicate the opposite, because Christ goes on to say, "and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband" (John 4:18). He did not treat "boarding together" as equivalent to a covenantal union.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando - Reformed Discussion Board in Spanish.

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

Thank you

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

My Blog