I am interested in receiving comments from both wives and husbands regarding the husband's leadership on certain viewpoints that, although they may be confessional/Biblical, are not the majority, even within reformed circles.

Some examples using some of my distinctives:

1. Exclusive psalmody: Man (EP) courts woman who is not;
2. Headcoverings: Man (believes in coverings) courts woman who has not heard of this practice;
3. Christmas/Easter: Man (doesn't celebrate) courts woman who does.

In all of these issues, there is a certain sensitivity. How does the man lead in these positions while not bombarding the woman with "strange" theological views, but while still leading with integrity according to his beliefs?

The idea is to not "scare off" the woman, but to still be clear about the positions that are taken. And to be clear how the future/potential family will be led.

-----Added 4/10/2009 at 11:47:36 EST-----

I understand that before marriage (during courtship), the man is not in a true leadership position. He is just trying to communicate how he will lead if/when marriage happens.

__________________
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"under the Southern Cross, at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

Are you only interested in hearing from the married couples?

__________________
Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

Would the pair be involved in Bible study during courtship? I ask because some would prefer not to be alone like this at all, some would be willing to do this if chaperones were nearby, some would be comfortable doing this in public, etc. If so, studying together what the Word has to say on these issues could be beneficial. I might start off with something less controversial or work up to in context (studying all of 1 Corinthians, not just chapter 11).

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

personally I think if he has strong standings on things and he is courting so it's cheif end is to end in marriage he should come right out and say what he believes. then if she's cool with that or at least open to moving in that direction. Or if she's like me she would know that that was not the man she was to marry. Right before I married my husband I asked him three questions :
1.) Do you belive that abortion is ok?
2.)Are you a Democrate
3.) Do you believe in predestination?
if he would have answered yes to any of them I would have walked out. (obviously we both learned about and slightly changed one of the answers )
The point is... those were my top three BIG issues. if those are his BIG issues that he isn't willing to waver on then he needs to lay it out on the table.

__________________
Jessica Auner
Wife, Mother,
Garden City, Ga
Ephesus Church
(a Reformed Baptist church)

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Tell her all of it upfront and if she is unwilling to submit, she isn't the one.

I told my wife, a new Christian at the time, 2 & 3 and that she would need to be a keeper at home and submit to me as the head and that there was a good chance I would want to go off to the mission field.

If she was not willing to submit to my headship in these things then lets not go any farther.

That is courting. Anything where this is left out is dating.
When would you be planning on springing it on her?

Now I had a lot to learn about headship, and making her feel heard and respected as a sister in Christ filled with the Spirit and being my helpmeet, to not help me do what I would do if I was single, but as a we, that God have given her smarts and intuition where I was dumb; that was the hard part that took time. And learning how to make her feel good about giving me advice and being able to be used by the Spirit as much as me.

Now the hard one is, if you are married and one changes convictions.

Patience, patience, more patience and get some of those gardening rubber knee pads. You will need them for al the praying you will be doing.

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DonP

Well, I'll just tell you my opinion on the subject....I think the man should discuss these issues with the woman beforehand. And ultimately he should find out ,regardless of what her views are, if she is willing to submit to him. Ultimately, I think it would be a matter of submission.

I certainly hope you didn't change on #2 ??

That would be the worst spiritual decline!

FTR I'm a very straight foward type of person. I don't like to tip toe around issues. I've had to tell people that thier loved one has died and it's always the same "(person X), so- and so passed away. I'm really sorrythey didn't suffer/didn't suffer for long/ died in their sleep." short and to the point.
So my post is just how I would handle the situation.

First, he should share his views with the lady's father before pursuing her. Her father has the responsibility to give her to a man who will lead her well. If he usurps this then he has already shown that he does not understand godly headship and has disregarded the role of her father.
Second, he should just be up front with her. Let her decide if these are hills to die on for her. He may be persuaded later, and he may not. Is he a godly man and someone she would love to serve and raise a godly family with, to the glory of God? Will their marriage proclaim the Gospel as the love and submission of Christ and the church is exemplified in their relationship? If so, then these things become less important.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Amos 3:3
Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
NKJV

Yes but it isn't easy and takes lots of grace and praying.

And you have to submit to her sometimes too. I mean fair is fair.
If you don't like the term, switch to decide to do it the way she wants

Complete and total honesty!!!

BE SURE!!! to promise her that if you have a conflict you will seek counsel together from somebody agreeable to both. I cannot begin to tell you what it has meant to me knowing that when we cannot come to unity on something major, we will both, together, talk to somebody. We have rarely had to do it- just knowing that he will submit himself to someone else helps me submit.

The times we did it was sooooo helpful. Men and women can see things so differently about kids and various other subjects. An objective person helps you both see the other side and where you might have a Romans 14 attitude problem.

__________________
Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

It is wonderful when a husband takes the spiritual lead. When we were courting in 1999 my husband had me read The Westminster Confession Explained. The three issues that Tim mentioned (EP, head covering and holidays) we didn't deal with and still don't consider major and neither does my church. His grown children and grandchildren celebrate holidays, and those traditions I have always felt exemplify family.

My husband has been diagnosed with dementia this past December and I have new questions on headship and will consult with others as needed. My husband trusts me and that is a quality built up over time. Life is more difficult for him now, and for me also as I am becoming the caregiver.

__________________
Carol
Plant City, Florida


That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:8,9

http://gettingoffthenicenesstreadmill.blogspot.com/

CNJ, you and your husband have just been added to my prayer list... Big-time...

Margaret

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Margaret
Free Church of Scotland [Continuing]
Michigan

me too!

It depends on how important the minor issues are to you. And to her family. Would your declining to participate on Christmas or Easter be a sign of disrespect to her parents? And are these issues core values to you?

__________________

We have had some differences in our almost 25 years of marriage. One thing that is different from some of the other posts is that we came to know Christ about 10 years into it. I have learned that being a tyrant by inflicting my convictions on someone else never works. However on things like C&E, I find that I have to pick and choose which events to participate in and which ones I tell everyone where I stand up front. Family dinners I can go to (the pagan who invites you to a meal being OK from 1Cor), but don't ask me to do an egg hunt, play S**ta Cl**s, sing to a tree or the like. As far as doctrinal differences, most of them seem to iron out as we study Scripture and seek wise counsel on certain subjects.
My views were in the minority as we came out of Rome or the world (and are still doing so), but sometimes her questions went before me on certain issues. She was concerned about the covering thing before I gave it any thought. Whenever we can't come to unity on an issue, it needs to be studied, discussed and prayed about (and repeat as necessary). It must never be used as a weapon against the other, but used as iron sharpening iron in love.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I disagree. These views are so uncommon that they should be disclosed fully and early in the relationship. If the woman isn't at least open to the ideas, there is no point wasting either person's time. And this certainly isn't a situation where you want to wait until the hook is set before springing them.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

I completely agree. I'm not sure the first meeting is the place, that's all.

I could go so many directions with this... UGH fight it! FIGHT IT!!! "Maybe I'm the only one, but..."



And I agree with the Scottish lass. On the first meeting, such issues might seem pretty intimidating, especially since the situation is that these things would be unfamiliar to the woman. I really liked the suggestion to go through a Bible study and to tackle the issues that way. It would be a good way to get to know her and examine her spiritual maturity (at least to a degree). And Wannabee's advice =

__________________
Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Well as much as I would agree if you had met some woman who you didn't know and she was a full Arminian or Charismatic.

But then I ask, where did you meet this woman and why would you be courting her?

Did you go off to a heretical church to find a wife?

Or maybe you meet her at a heretical campus group. Or you were witnessing to her?

I suggest evangelistic dating and courting is not best. Help her come to the truth before considering courting.

If the D of G and your beliefs would be so shocking to her, you probably should be having nice social conversations, inviting her to your church etc and not considering courting yet.

What would be the grounds to court her?

She is female and professes to know Christ? I would hope you could do better.

But if not, then the Lassie's advice is acceptable.

What if she is like Bathsheba? Err--I mean, she can have clothes on or whatever, but is one fine lookin' senorita?


(And Don, the only issues that I was talking about were those of the "minority" as mentioned in the OP. The situation [I thought] assumed she was a solid Christian who had differing understandings or a lack of knowledge about those minority issues.)

Knowing the "type" of man who would have these views... and the ethos that typically surrounds such a fellow... I find it hard to believe that such a man would serious consider marrying a woman who didn't hold to those views. Unless, of course, he was just desperate.

Let me add that when I speak of the "ethos" that often accompanies adherance to at least the first two items on this list - particularly when these things are held at the same time - I mean that negatively.

I would strongly discourage my daughter from getting involved with such a man... or my sons from being with such a woman.

__________________
Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

If she is reformed then I don't see why sharing what you believe pretty near up front, before courting would be a good idea.

I mean it also depends on one's practice. To me courting means

I have been around the woman, talked with her in groups, and maybe even her folks, believe her to be godly and a good wife and mother.

So now I have progressed in that relationship enough to ask her if she would consider marrying the possibility of getting to know me enough to decide if she would marry me.

If she says eys, maybe not the first discussion you have but soon these issues, if you are not willing to compromise on them, must come up.

In fact her parents may forbid her to court you since you are a old fashioned fundie zealot or something, terms some of us have been called here on this board even for holding to such views, now considered minority which until this past century were majority.

So why wait and get her hurt, or yourself. Will you deceive her and lead her on the once she is hooked on you say, but by the way you have to come to a church with me where head coverings are required or we sing only psalms.

In a sense I see what you are saying Don, and I suppose a lot of the issue has to do with poor wording. I have the same general view of courting as you do (except the parents would be greatly involved and, in fact, the ones I approach first about courting their daughter way before I show any interest to her), so not talking about the minority issues "on the first meeting" doesn't make much sense. However, perhaps in the case of meeting someone online, I wouldn't start off by saying, "so, do you cover your head, sing only psalms in corporate worship, and refuse to celebrate Easter and Christ? If not, would you submit to me if we were married and do these things?" It is just so much of a culture shock to those who haven't been exposed to these views. Or what about if a woman is a new believer but clearly has attractive qualities and a willingness to submit herself to the truths of Scripture? The minority views can be troubling until they can really be explained and talked about. The hypothetical situations are endless, and a different approach will probably be needed for each. Soli Deo Gloria, the Lord is in control...

Agreed, that is what I said. You are not yet courting her, you are only getting to know her.
So of course, in this situation the Lassie is wise.

But as soon as you think you want it to be courting if not before this, they need to come up or you both may be wasting time.

Okay I see what you mean then. I concur!

I don't disagree with your comment here, but I don't see it as inconsistent with my post. I may have made some rash assumptions about the situation. I was assuming that things had moved past the first date stage to one where the guy, at least, was trying to determine if this was 'the one'. At that stage, I'll stick with my 'early and full'. A blind date or a casual first date? I won't disagree with your point.

Must have been the language barrier, Eh??

Are you getting ready to try this out ??

or is this truly hypothetical?

Well, it is all hypothetical in my case, though I am actively preparing to be a godly man capable of providing for a family, but oh how I pray my help-meet has great patience. I didn't write the OP though, so I don't know if his situation is hypothetical or not.

Sorry I was thinking I was replying to Tim in the last one

So Tim is this totally hypothetical or are you using us here to help you get prepared??

Anyone in mind?

Agreed. I might have done better in 1646, but nowadays it's different. That is why I made this thread.

Absolutely. How do I do this?

Of course, there are other issues that must be first considered. But because these three issues necessarily result in a real practice (or a change of practice), I thought it important to consider them. As such, they really aren't that far behind.

There is no woman. Hypothetical.

Well, you have basically told me what you think of my views. Surely you know that there are a number of people on this board who take such positions. I am a real person who is trying to follow the Bible the best I can and to lead my future family as best I can. I made this thread so I could better learn how to deal with responses such as yours; and to know when not to pursue a relationship that obviously would never work. Please tell me I have misunderstood your post.

At this point, it is hypothetical. I have another two years or so in South Africa, and I don't believe there are any churches in South Africa that teach these positions. Therefore, I can't expect that anyone would hold such distinctives. Perhaps Afrikaans churches do, but I am not a part of that culture at all.

What is not hypothetical is that because I am involved in the Christian community here in Cape Town, I meet people. And one of these days, I might meet a young lady who, although she might not hold to such distinctives, might otherwise have good Christian character and a good heart. I am trying to prepare myself to know how to deal with such a situation.

Be encouraged Tim!
I was a lapsed Roman Catholic and had NEVER heard of any of these things before I met my husband. (We did cover our heads in worship as children but that seemed to die out) There are women out there who believe as you do and also tender hearted ones who will be prepared to study these things and follow your lead. But for sure, these can be major grievences so they need to be discussed before any relationship developes. As a new christian I embraced many new beliefs (and maybe even some hubby didn't!)
May the Lord bless you with a Godly wife in his time!

__________________
Ruby
Queensland, Australia


"He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
Micah 6:8

Tim, one thing that might be helpful if things get definite is something like an "Engagement Encounter" ("Marriage Encounter") weekend. One can even be done before one is engaged, I think by their rules.

While I don't want to spoil the surprise of their format, a lot involves discussion between yourselves of all sorts of issues that potentially could divide.

There is a section on "What are we going to do on holidays?" You'll want to think through how you will deal with both your friends and relatives (hers and yours) who will be celebrating holidays like Christmas and Easter. What are each of your expectations?

To say merely "we don't do holidays" is not the whole story because friends and relatives will have their own expectations. You may be of conviction that doesn't matter (what they think) but, in reality, your potential wife needs to understand the implications. Her mother may be expecting you to visit (and participate) in Christmas every couple years at least so the two of you need to talk through and agree on how you will deal with this. (And let me tell you this... one thing you will need to find a way to 'celebrate' is your wedding anniversary and her birthday).

While many different denominations sponsor these, here is one link to information from the United Methodist Church about Engagement Encounter weekends (link at the bottom):

Video List

Here's one for a "Reformed Engagement Encounter"
http://www.reformedengagedencounter.org/what.html

Tim if the woman is not hardened but merely ignorant of these beliefs, then this is an opportunity to teach her and strengthen her in the faith.

-----Added 4/13/2009 at 10:40:08 EST-----

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I think we would all agree that this would usually be the case today. It's more likely that people on this board would have taken a good hard look at EP or headcoverings or holy-days, but I would think that most people in reformed churches have not.

Tim,

It is good you are considering such things because you understand that beliefs will have practical effects.

Take, for example, two basic parts of the Christian life that will regularly affect the way you live together as a family:

1) Sabbath
2) Tithing (offering)

The first will affect 1/7 of "your" life, might even affect whether you keep a job, and how you prepare Saturday night.

The second will affect 1/10 of "your" money initially (and then grow as a percent from there). Ordinarily, you will both need to agree and restrain yourselves to live on say 90% of what you earn. This cannot be done unilaterally.

The man is responsible to set the tone for these in the household.

While it means setting some practical guidelines to obey and, by God's grace, keeping them, it also means being loving and listening in the details to others at home who don't necessarily agree with the detail application. I think the latter part is as important as the former and something a husband, as leader, cannot even begin to imperfectly obey without God's grace.

God is looking for obedience and He is also looking for loving your neighbor. That certainly begins with those closest to you. Being 'right' about the precept is often easier than being the suffering servant God calls a man to be as a husband. Somehow, there has to be both.

And Tim if you are not into birthdays you don't need to celebrate them.

I have been married over 30 years and don't celebrate birthdays simply because it seems a bit prideful and self centered and the little written on it shows only bad things happened in scripture on BD celebrations like Herod chopping J t B head off.

So we make no big deal of them. Maybe on some years a special dinner request was offered or I take her out to dinner where she would like to go.

We gave gifts to kids out of love all around the year but we did give them a few at once at Thanksgiving. A time we chose to focus on thanks to God at home and discuss what we were thankful for and give gifts like others do at XMas.
This was a little hard on my folks and more so on my grandparents who weren't Christians and considered it winter holidays.

Her parents didn't seem to care and respected our wishes and sent presents at thanksgiving to our kids.

We choose not to be much involved in the world and don't find a need to.
But I mainly believe these are wrong to be celebrated in church but if people choose to learn the way of the heathen and do those practices at home and confuse their kids with Santa, East star, etc. that is up to them.

We have Pizza parties and game nights etc for the kids where they can have their friends over or overnight all during the year so they do not feel deprived. Other kids think they are lucky they get presents at Thanksgiving and all year. Mom did give the kids one or 2 gifts on their birthdays but no party. They had parties for other reasons.

But you certainly want to make sure she is on board with this and willing to suffer for Christ and even from some who are called brothers that would attack people for these beliefs.

The kids we work with in orphanages in Mexico and Africa don't have birthday parties or get gifts and we are way better off than they.
We could be them, we should be prepared to go live with them and give up anything in the world for their sakes.

And pray a lot and consistently for what you want and believe God will provide, He is able.
Mk 11:22-24

Holidays, headcoverings and EP are issues that are minor, but as has been said, they are a matter of practice, but they do affect who a husband and wife live and raise children together. If these issues are that important to you, then I would not get involved with a woman who does not agree with you already, and I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to persuade her to think like you do.

Getting someone to change their beliefs for your sake is a recipe for disaster. I'd look for someone who already agrees with you.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

If these are all minor issues then any Godly woman who knows the clear important teaching of a wife being submissive to the husbands headship would have no problem submitting to them.