In light of the recent courtship thread, I thought I would ask about the benefits of courtship for the man.

I read this paper:

http://www.reformedpresbytery.org/bo...p/courtshp.pdf

It was kindly posted in the other thread and I found lots of information on how the father can "assess" the godliness and suitability of the man. While this is good for the woman to be able to select a proper husband, I wondered about the other side!

Take a look at some of the questions in the latter part of the article. They are quite challenging and probing, such as in regard to the young man's past sins and repentence (sexual, alcohol/drug, personal relationships, anger, pride, etc...).

Ought the young lady also "submit" to this sort of "questioning"? Perhaps with an older female adult, or the suitor's mother? Otherwise, it seems quite uneven.

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Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

Interesting questions.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

While men (and women!!!) need to be upfront about past sins, wisdom (common sense) dictates you do this wisely. Don't turn it into an inquisitor moment (e.g., have all the family and cousins and such listen to him confess to all his moral shortcomings. In some ways, let this discussion be between the courtee and courter). You are not trying to humiliate the person.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Well Said Joshua. I have some Mennonite friends back home in WV and I was invited to go to what my friends derisively called a "Courtship Trial" in which the Father of one of my friends was questioning the suitor oh his eldest daughter (who was not Mennonite). Evidently they required "witnesses" or something, who knows. Went "well" until they found he was not completely chaste. Then not so good, though they ended up getting married anyway and last I knew were still married 11 years later.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

That's horrible. Really. So bad I actually can't cry.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Dude, his name is Jacob.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I'm sorry, but that is just a disgusting thing to do. I can understand a little talk between father of the girl and the young man/mother of the young man and the young lady...but something like that...no way.

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JC
URCNA
PA

"Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean we will allow injustice again." --Jack Kornfield

Sorry

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

Interestingly enough it was part of the reason why a couple of them that I knew actually became Old Order Mennonite (one even went Amish). They thought the "modern" Mennonites they were raised around had lost the reasons for why they did certain things and had perverted them.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

Why couldn't the potential suitor also question the parents. A young man sure shouldn't jump into a marriage with a woman with crazy parents.

From many sites and books it appears that the suitor has to become a groveling neutered pup instead of prince chamring ready to fight for his bride. And with many weird marriages and sub-par parents, I would invite young men to also examine and question the parents.

My wife's father is an unbeliever wo did not adequately care for my wife as a child, and there is no way that I ever did or ever will allow him to dictate the terms of my relationship with his daughter. It was more like rescue than begging for her hand in marriage.

Some forms of patriarchialism allow fathers to become overbearing brutes not only to their own children but to any potential suitors as well.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

When I read the link mentioned in the first post I thought much the same things. It does seem awfully one-sided. My observation is that most parents are one-sided when it come to their children's choice of romantic partner; whether it be dating or courtship, the desire to check that someone is good enough for your precious child is always there. I have seen relationships (and may have been in one) where both sets of parents were convinced that the other partner in the relationship was not good enough for their child.

As to there being a one sided or sexist aspect to it, that I'm a little less sure of. Parents seem equally biased in favour of their sons and their daughters. Church-wide there may be some of that though; going on my limited experience, it does seem to be a common complaint that there are insufficient number of eligible men for all the women, even when there are similar numbers of both genders in the appropriate age range.

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

Pergy, those with crazy parents shouldn't be turned down for marriage. Just know what you are getting into.

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JC
URCNA
PA

"Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean we will allow injustice again." --Jack Kornfield

My wife was in a similar situation with her Mother (her Parents are divorced, her Father is a Christian man, albeit a little on the liberal side but he has a very credible confession). She is actively antagonistic against her daughter's faith and of course my call.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

I recall that paper being discussed in a previous thread sometime ago.

Although I remain open to correction, then as now I felt that some of the questions on character border on invasive, even from, or rather especially from, a christian perspective.

Many of the questions, especially those with respect to past sin struck me as focusing too much on the past of the candiate. I do not see that the bible portrays past sin as following a man around like a criminal record. Repentance and a presently righteous life ought to be enough to clear a man of any past sins. If the sins are relatively recent, than yes, a man should be made to prove the sincerity of his repentance, but I don't see the need to go about digging up things which are in the past.

I do believe that parents have the right and authority to ask such questions, I just wonder about their propriety.

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Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

One thing I have noticed is that there are many 'boys' who are afraid to stand up to a girls father in the line of these type questions. So to me, it's not really about getting all the questions answered, but really about HOW he answers them.

If he is a man and not still a boy, is he ready to be married, by being able to stand up to the father and not worrying about offending him, after all He will be the head of the home of this man's daughter..will he be able to protect her and his marriage from outside forces..even if that includes the parents interfering?

I have watched many marriages be intruded upon by in-laws trying to control their children and grandchild and boys who are not yet men answer or run away in order to avoid the conflicts with the potential in laws, so one must ask is he prepared to stand up against such things and not belly up under pressure in order to avoid conflict, merely because it is with a future inlaw?

I think many people today have turned it around as if to destroy a young man, but in reality, it has been intended to make sure the man is able to truly protect their marriage and his bride, and in that, no, I don't think the same applies to the girl and the young man's mother..as she is not called to be the head of the family.

edit to add:

My daughter was recently going out with a young kid, who was always trying to impress her, even when he couldn't afford it..if he wanted to take her out instead of waiting till he had the money to do so, he'd put off his responsibilities and take her out. I asked her what that tells her about him, and his taking responsibility over things? If he can't control himself in managing his finances how do you think he will be able to control himself sexually? if he can't be honest with you and say "I'd love to go out and do this, but I really can't afford it this week, would you mind if we do something else?" and see that she can respect that and not pout and pitch a fit because he truly can not afford it, then he's not the right guy for her, and if she pitches a fit, when he is being honest, then she is not the right gal for him either. It's not up to her to protect him, but for him to protect her.

It's part of the leaving and cleaving that makes a marriage, and he needs to be able to respectfully stand up for himself and her against her parents and his own from interfering.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

In my experiences, courtship has been an extremely one-sided endeavor. While I have benefited from the experience, I have also been hurt by it as well, and I feel I was not even remotely protected as much as my fiancee' was. I don't think this is due to anything inherant in the notion of courtship, but rather inherant in the parents.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Not to get overly-relative with this, but...they're complaining? Man, they should come out to California with me for a couple of weeks. We don't think anything is sacred.

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Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

A related question....does anyone know of any online sites for Reformed singles to meet for possible courtship? The only one we know of is Sovereign Grace Singles

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Robin
Married to Jim
Mother to Gabrielle (20), Victoria (18), Joshua (16), Olivia (12) and Elizabeth (8).
ARP
Birmingham, Alabama
Avatar: "Generations" by artist Loren Entz. This print reminds me of my sweet mother and wonderful grandma to my children who went home to be with the Lord in 2002.

There is a facebook group called "Young, Restless, and Reformed." I can't vouch for the quality of it, though.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Not completely chaste...is that like being kind of pregnant?

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

The father somehow having the 'right' to demand information that belongs between husband and wife as if he were a confessor or the one who gets to decide how much his daughter can forgive etc. has always seemed to me appalling, and to be a practical denial of many doctrines we affirm. I think the parents can encourage honesty between the two people involved